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Midland Railway Company


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Indeed, Pullman had cars. The Midland had carriages - so presumably an ex-Pullman in Midland ownership was a carriage. Coach seems to have come in with the LMS. (Vide the titles of the standard works on the subject!)

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Indeed, Pullman had cars. The Midland had carriages - so presumably an ex-Pullman in Midland ownership was a carriage. Coach seems to have come in with the LMS. (Vide the titles of the standard works on the subject!)

 

SE&CR had cars!

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I have a couple of questions which I haven’t been able to answer myself, and I thought, hmm, if anyone is going to know it is the learned gentle ladies and men here.

 

 

 

My first, I have got myself an LTSR bullion van (the Wills kit, the inaccuracies of which I can live with). I have replaced the W irons and axle boxes to it runs nicely, now I come to paint it and I am stuck. When the MR took over the LTSR it cancelled its plans to replace the aging bullion van no.60 (25ft arc roof NPCS) and used the relatively newly built LTSR numbers 1 and 2 (iirc they were built either 1910 or 1911). In LTSR livery they would have been finished in varnished teak. My question is, would the MR have repainted them in lined Crimson Lake to match their current passenger livery, and if they did at what point would that have occurred?

 

 

 

Painting wise neither scheme worries me, I am tempted to go for the teak finish because it is different to the crimson of my other coaching stock, however, if it should be crimson then that is an inaccuracy that I couldn’t accept.

 

My second question relates to motive power. A number of the Johnson 2-4-0 locomotives were rebuilt with Belpair boilers, however I can find no information about how many of them and when they were so converted. All the images I have seen of Belpair rebuilds are wearing LMS livery. Does anyone know if any were rebuilt with Belpair boilers before the grouping?

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I have a couple of questions which I haven’t been able to answer myself, and I thought, hmm, if anyone is going to know it is the learned gentle ladies and men here.

 

 

 

My first, I have got myself an LTSR bullion van (the Wills kit, the inaccuracies of which I can live with). I have replaced the W irons and axle boxes to it runs nicely, now I come to paint it and I am stuck. When the MR took over the LTSR it cancelled its plans to replace the aging bullion van no.60 (25ft arc roof NPCS) and used the relatively newly built LTSR numbers 1 and 2 (iirc they were built either 1910 or 1911). In LTSR livery they would have been finished in varnished teak. My question is, would the MR have repainted them in lined Crimson Lake to match their current passenger livery, and if they did at what point would that have occurred?

 

 

 

Painting wise neither scheme worries me, I am tempted to go for the teak finish because it is different to the crimson of my other coaching stock, however, if it should be crimson then that is an inaccuracy that I couldn’t accept.

 

My second question relates to motive power. A number of the Johnson 2-4-0 locomotives were rebuilt with Belpair boilers, however I can find no information about how many of them and when they were so converted. All the images I have seen of Belpair rebuilds are wearing LMS livery. Does anyone know if any were rebuilt with Belpair boilers before the grouping?

 

1.   As to the repaint's I will have a look in Midland Style and Dow and Lacy for you and see if there is any mention of it.   If neither of those sources turn anything up then I would suggest that you paint it in whatever style you prefer. 

 

2.  The Belpaire 2-4-0's are all detailed in Summerson's books.   I'll have a look for you.   

 

Jamie

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I've had a look in Summerson (Vol 3) and the Belpaire 2-4-0's were rebuilt with G6 boilers starting in 1924 under the LMS.   If you need any more info, dates, loco numbers feel free to get back to me.   I'll continue to dig about the bullion van.

 

Jamie

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I've now had time to peruse,

a) Midland Style, published by HMRS in the 70's and long out of print

and

b) Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2 by Lacy and Dow.

 

 

The L T & S Bullion vans, No's 1 & 2 are mentioned in both, apparently their acquisition saved the Midland from having to build two more of their own.

 

They were originally painted in the standard LTSR passenger livery but after 1912 most of the stock had a top panel painted black and Midland in Gold letters applied. There is no specific mention of the bullion vans being repainted but apparently a lot of the stock survived to the grouping in original livery. No 1 was renumbered 60 and No 2 127 in the Post office series, No 127 became 1847 in 1923 and 44599 in 1933.

 

 

Hope this is of use.

 

Jamie

Edited by jamie92208
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but after 1912 most of the stock had a to panel painted black and Midland in Gold letters applied. 

 

In other words, the company branding was displayed in the standard style even if the carriage wasn't repainted.

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Back to the permanent way. I have taken the liberty of publishing a drawing of the points and crossings of the Midland Railway Company to assist modellers in getting them right.

Needless to say and this I must emphasise this information must only be used for personal and research purposes.

Those wishing to republish or use commercially must obtain permission from the drawing holders, THE MIDLAND RAILWAY STUDY CENTRE.

post-9302-0-68179100-1532174059_thumb.jpg

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I've now had time to peruse,

a) Midland Style, published by HMRS in the 70's and long out of print

and

b) Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2 by Lacy and Dow.

 

 

The L T & S Bullion vans, No's 1 & 2 are mentioned in both, apparently their acquisition saved the Midland from having to build two more of their own.

 

They were originally painted in the standard LTSR passenger livery but after 1912 most of the stock had a top panel painted black and Midland in Gold letters applied. There is no specific mention of the bullion vans being repainted but apparently a lot of the stock survived to the grouping in original livery. No 1 was renumbered 60 and No 2 127 in the Post office series, No 127 became 1847 in 1923 and 44599 in 1933.

 

 

Hope this is of use.

 

Jamie

That is just what I was looking for. I shall go with teak and Midland lettering and number 127. Thank you for your assistance.

 

David

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That is just what I was looking for. I shall go with teak and Midland lettering and number 127. Thank you for your assistance.

 

David

Please post some pictures of it when you've done.

 

Jamie

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Not a question specifically about the Midland, but hopefully not too far off topic.

 

Is there any information in print on the Midland/GSWR joint stock carriages?

 

My interest is that they occasional turned up at Oban having worked over the Callander & Oban line.

The Caledonian Railway's 1913 carriage marshalling circular doesn't contain any details of such workings so I'm guessing these carriages were special excursion traffic.

 

post-13616-0-69931400-1534102238_thumb.jpg

 

I believe the front coach is of Bain design? Possible a 59' First class dining car?

 

There is another photo of a Midland carriage on its way to Oban in the Caledonian Railway Carriages book so the working above is not unique.

 

Adding a Midland Clerestory will be a nice addition to a mixed rake of Caley and WCJS carriages that usually frequented the line.

 

Edit: an additional thought, how were these braked? where they dual piped for the Caley's Westinghouse air brake?

 

Thanks

 

Angus

Edited by Argos
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Not a question specifically about the Midland, but hopefully not too far off topic.

 

Is there any information in print on the Midland/GSWR joint stock carriages?

 

My interest is that they occasional turned up at Oban having worked over the Callander & Oban line.

The Caledonian Railway's 1913 carriage marshalling circular doesn't contain any details of such workings so I'm guessing these carriages were special excursion traffic.

 

attachicon.gifCR No52 Oban 1913 with Bain gswr-mr coach.jpg

 

I believe the front coach is of Bain design? Possible a 59' First class dining car?

 

There is another photo of a Midland carriage on its way to Oban in the Caledonian Railway Carriages book so the working above is not unique.

 

Adding a Midland Clerestory will be a nice addition to a mixed rake of Caley and WCJS carriages that usually frequented the line.

 

Edit: an additional thought, how were these braked? where they dual piped for the Caley's Westinghouse air brake?

 

Thanks

 

Angus

 

They are fully covered in the two volume history of Midland coaches by Dow and Lacey  Most of the joint stock coaches are covered in Volume 2.   As far as I know they were all standard Derby built coaches but were allocated to the Joint stock, ether M & GSWR or Midland and NB. I think that there is a lot of info in the Illustrated Review of Midland Coaches by Jenkinson and Essery though there is far more detail and good plans of almost every type of coach in the Dow and Lacey books. A lot of the background is contained in P E Baughan's work North of Leeds.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie

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Thanks Jamie,

 

I'll track down a copy.

Frustratingly I found both volumes at the local market on a second hand book stall for a £10 each.

I was a bit skint at the time so I reluctantly left them un-purchased.

 

A few hours later I had a change of heart and went back but they had already gone.

A lesson to learn I feel!

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They were dual braked for the Midland Vacuum and the Caley and NB Westinghouse. I've got some M&GSWR coaching stock that I made in 7mm for Long Preston that still runs on Green Ayre. I've still got a couple of spare etches for Joint stock clerestories I've an idea to make one of them up as an LNER coach in teak just for a  laugh.

 

 

Jamie

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This photo has been discussed on the CRASSOC forum, where, bizarrely, attention was focused on the WCJS semi-sleeper composite in the background. The carriage centre stage is not M&GSW or M&GN joint stock but pure Midland, being a 50ft family carriage to D542, ten ordered in March 1907 to Lot 664 - the last family carriages built by the Midland [Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 342 and Fig. 460]. They were, presumably, dual fitted given the likelihood of being hired for journeys to Scotland. Oban was home to the Highland Games which were a major society event in pre-Great War days so would, in season, attract the sort of clientele who could afford the luxury of a private carriage - perhaps even the Duke of Devonshire himself, down from Chatsworth.

 

BTW the point about the WCJS sleeper was that it had to be one of the eight-wheeler semi-sleepers rather than a twelve-wheeler, as twelve-wheelers were not permitted on the Oban line. I believe close inspection of the panelling confirmed this identification.

Edited by Compound2632
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Hi Compound,

 

Thanks for the identity of the Midland carriage. A family carriage makes more sense than an isolated dining car working.

 

As regards the sleeper cars on the C&O I have often seen it repeated that 12w sleepers were banned.

 

This is at odds with the evidence.

The Caledonian Marshalling circular of 1913 makes specific reference to 65' sleeper cars (12w) being used on the Euston - Oban Service.

 

This tallies with information given in a Register of WCJS Carriages and John Thomas's line history.

 

The later also contains an anecdote of a trip to Oban in late Caley times on Mary Beaton, one of the 12w Pullman cars.

 

I'm currently building one of the 68' sleeper cars in the LNWR Society modelling challenge sections (also linked in my signature)

 

Thanks

 

Angus

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Thanks Compound.
 
I am a member of CRASSOC so had seen that topic, there is another one that covers a similar subject, albeit that is started off about Pullman cars and wandered off a bit.
 
https://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1247
 
You might recognize one of the correspondents.  ;)

 

I do need to invest in some more of the marshalling circulars, they are surprisingly informative.

I'm trying to build a picture of carriage formations over the C&O immediately pre-WW1

 

Do you know if any of the Midland circulars are available?

The Midland presence west of Callander seems to be sporadic so I don't think it was a regular working (and certainly not in 1913).

In which case it probably won't get a mention but it would be good to check.

 

Thanks

 

Angus

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Do you know if any of the Midland circulars are available?

The Midland presence west of Callander seems to be sporadic so I don't think it was a regular working (and certainly not in 1913).

In which case it probably won't get a mention but it would be good to check.

 

Thanks

 

Angus

 

I have been trying to write an article on the formation of Midland Scotch expresses for several years now, using the Carriage Marshalling books for 1902, 1910, 1914 and 1915, in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre. It's got bogged down in the difficulty of matching the documentary and photographic evidence! The workings over the Glasgow & South Western went no further north than Glasgow but many North British destinations north of Edinburgh had through carriages - Inverness, Aberdeen, Perth, Fort William but not Caledonian Oban of course. My guess would be that the only Midland carriages to get to Oban would be family saloons. I do wonder what route they would have taken - North British to Crianlarich?

 

I've thought it perverse that the Glasgow-based Caledonian's line to the Isles should have run from the Edinburgh direction whereas the Edinburgh-based North British's line should run from Glasgow!

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Seems like I've found the right man then!

 

Exchange over the Crianlarich spur seems to limited in pre-grouping days, anecdotally at least.

 

The Caley did work trains from Edinburgh to Oban though. 

 

The usual format appears to be a 3 carriage set working from Buchanan St (either Brake 3rd - First - Brake 3rd or with a Composite in lieu of the First depending on whether 45', 50' or 57' stock was used).

 

This was combined at Callander with carriages from Edinburgh that had set off an hour earlier than the Glasgow working! 

Usually a Brake Composite, strengthened with a Third in some workings.

 

The starting point for the Edinburgh service would be usually Princes Street.

I don't know what the connections were like to Waverley but presumably there was some form of exchange?

There was one working from Waverley listed as far as Callander leaving at 7.30 PM and balanced at 9.45 PM, any additional stock could presumably be left for later trains to pick up.

This is listed as being made up of brake Third - First - Brake Third so probably 45' stock. 

This would seem late to arrive in Oban at a civilized time though!

 

I've been trying to find other photos of Midland carriages on the C&O.

I seem to recall one in the distance at Oban but can't find it again (sods law....)

 

There is a picture of a what looks to be a standard clerestory carriage in Mike William's Caledonian Carriage book.

This is post-grouping in 1925. Even so I can't see why it would be on the C&O if it wasn't a through working.

The picture is not great and it is difficult to see the detail.

 

Working through the true line archive the only other reference to Midland carriages I can see are articles in True line 19 and 119 which detail the through working of Midland Pullman cars to Perth in 1877. These were worked via Larbert but I think the NB had running rights so not Caley hauled.

Edited by Argos
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I suppose the other possible route is via the G&SW with exchange to the Caley in Glasgow - I've never got my head round Glasgow railway geography but that would presumably be rather more direct than via Edinburgh.

 

Couldn't an ex-Midland carriage on the C&O post-Grouping be explained simply by cascading?

Edited by Compound2632
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