Midland Railway Company

[Compound2632]

@technohand, what were you smoking? Beatrice was a coupled engine - only to be mistaken for a single by those aware that they're seeing double!

 

 

 

[Northroader]

Don’t call us, we’ll ring you.

[bill-lobb]

Now there's the big engine the Midland always wanted.

[Dave Hunt]

I often wondered where Deeley got the idea for his 4-6-0 from

[technohand]

Please remind me to engage brain before replying.

Tony

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, technohand said:

Please remind me to engage brain before replying.

Tony

 

I had suspected you meant Princess of Wales rather than Beatrice all along...

[Dave Hunt]

13 hours ago, technohand said:

Please remind me to engage brain before replying.

Tony

It's an easy mistake to make Tony with the Midland having had so many named engines......

[technohand]

What all two of them!!!!!

 

[Compound2632]

I will have a look at the Carriage Marshalling documents of which I have photographic copies. Single carriages would be brake composites: 48 ft lavatory types early in the 20th century, 54 ft corridor types such as the leading vehicle in that photo by the 1910s.

[jamie92208]

I'm currently  away from any reference material but I seem to remember that several batches of Clerestories were built to a slightly reduced loading gauge (1.5"s comes to mind) to enable them to work to the south via the Widened Lines.

 

Jamie

[Nick Holliday]

I don't know if it makes any difference to the discussion, but I am pretty sure the photo of the B4 is post-grouping, since the cab-side number plate is of SR origin. This would make a possible re-routing of the Midland service, for whatever reason, more easily organised to run, at least in part, on ex-Brighton tracks.

[billbedford]

Given the route, they would have carriages built to the Metropolitan loading gauge. 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I'm currently  away from any reference material but I seem to remember that several batches of Clerestories were built to a slightly reduced loading gauge (1.5"s comes to mind) to enable them to work to the south via the Widened Lines.

 

Jamie

 

Yes. The first clerestory carriages of 1896 were built to a height of 13'3" to top of clerestory roof. This was soon reduced to 13'1" which remained the standard height until 1906, when that 1½” reduction to 12'11½” @jamie92208 mentions was introduced, remaining the standard until elliptical roofs were adopted. However, even this reduced height was too tall for the Metropolitan Widened Lines loading gauge. For this, several lots of corridor carriages 12'8" to top of clerestory were built, 47 vehicles in the period 1907-1911:

• eight 50 ft corridor brake composites, D471, built 1907 for Dover & Deal services;
• ten 54 ft corridor brake composites, D472
• eight 54 ft corridor thirds, D547
• five 54 ft corridor brake thirds, D477
• two 54 ft vestibuled thirds, D541
• two 54 ft vestibuled firsts, D540, all built 1909;
• twelve 50 ft third class having three compartments with side corridor and an open saloon arranged with a longitudinal table, picnic saloon-wise, D598, built 1911.

In addition, all the 20th-century bogie gangwayed party, family, family sleeping, and invalid carriages were built to the 12'8" height:

• four 54 ft party (picnic) saloons, D546, built 1911
• ten 50 ft family carriages, D542, built 1908/9
• twelve 50 ft family sleeping carriages, built 1903/4, D457 - the only Met gauge carriages in the square-light panelling style
• four 50 ft invalid carriages, D599, built 1912.

As they were for first class private hire, the family etc. carriages travelled far and wide - one of the D546 vehicles was photographed at Oban pre-1914. (Oban was the home of the Highland Games, a significant event in the aristocratic social calendar.)

 

There were also some CCTs built to Met gauge from 1888 and twenty-four 6-wheel full brakes, round-light non-clerestory "cove" roof versions of the standard 6-wheel clerestory brake van built in 1913/14; they were put on the same diagram D530 as the clerestory vehicles. These are specifically mentioned as being dual braked; presumably all the other carriages mentioned were too.

 

Ref: R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986).

 

Implications of this:

• any through workings via the widened lines before the building of these 12'8" clerestory carriages must have used arc-roofed carriages built up to 1896
• any photos of trains with other diagrams of clerestory carriage cannot have travelled via the widened lines.

That Brighton train photo is a case in point: the leading vehicle is a 54 ft square light corridor brake composite to D470, built 1904/5, 13'1" tall.

 

The summer 1903 Midland timetable does not show any through carriages to the south coast east of Southampton, which was reached via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR. In the tables of "lines in connection" it gives a summary of the LB&SC services from Victoria and SE&C from Charing Cross (including Reading!) and Victoria, as well as the Midland local service from Kentish Town to Victoria and the horse omnibus service between St Pancras and Victoria - free of charge for those with through tickets from more than 50 miles from St Pancras.

 

Ref. Time Tables of the Midland Railway and Railways in Connection, July, August, and September 1903 (Reprint: Ian Allan, 1969).

 

It rather looks as if the services via Herne Hill advertised in your 1911 timetable bill started c. 1909 when the bulk of the 12'8" high carriages were built, with the Dover & Deal service having started a couple of years earlier. 

 

Turning to the Carriage Marshalling etc. books, that for Oct 1909 onwards for through express trains between London St. Pancras, Manchester, and Liverpool shows a through carriage from Deal to Manchester on the 2:30 pm train and on the 11:45 am up from Manchester. For the latter, there is a footnote: "Forms 2:20 pm St. Pancras to Kentish Town along with Bradford to Deal coach" - trains did not stop at Kentish Town to detach the south coast carriages, rather they were worked back round and (I think) attached to a Kentish Town - Herne Hill local. There is a note in the July 1913 and July 1914 Passenger Train Working book to the effect that if the 10:15 am up Leeds express is running late (not arrived by 2:20 pm), it should be stopped at Kentish Town to detach the South Coast portion, but this instruction is not in the July 1908 book. 

 

The accommodation described in the Oct 1909 Carriage Marshalling book corresponds to the 50 ft D471 carriages; however there is a note: "Midland and SE&C coaches run to and from Deal on alternate days" and indeed there is a photo of a Manchester express corresponding to the formation described in that document, with a birdcage brake composite leading. 

 

I can't find any sign of through carriages in the Oct 1922 Carriage Marshalling book. 

 

The documents mentioned are in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre; unfortunately they currently have a database issue (hopefully very temporary) so I can't give collection item numbers.

 

Whilst looking through these documents, I came across another interesting working - a through Fridays only Whitehaven-Southampton service via Hellifield, Derby, and Cheltenham, made up of a Furness Railway 6-compartment bogie third seating 36 (so presumably a corridor vehicle) and a van. This appears in the summer 1910 and 1914 England and Scotland Carriage Marshalling books; I've not traced the return working - it must not have been attached to a Scotch express at any point in its journey - neither does it appear in the 1911 North & West Carriage Marshalling book, where I would have expected to find some trace of it.

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Compound2632
Typos corrected

[Compound2632]

Looking again at @AVS1998's 1911 timetable bill, I note that apart from Tonbridge, Folkestone, Dover , and Deal, which have the through carriages, destinations are served by changing at Tonbridge, Ashford, or Herne Hill.

[Caley Jim]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

As they were for first class private hire, the family etc. carriages travelled far and wide - one of the D546 vehicles was photographed at Oban pre-1914. (Oban was the home of the Highland Games, a significant event in the aristocratic social calendar.)

Highland Games were and are held in many locations, not just Oban, the most famous, through their Royal patronage, being at Braemar.

 

There are many other reasons why they could be going there, grouse shooting, fishing etc. and don't forget that Oban was, and still is, a major ferry terminal for the Islands, especially Mull and on occasion Islay.

 

Jim

Edited December 2, 2019 by Caley Jim
Spelling correction

[Compound2632]

I've found the Oban photo, on the CRASSOC Forum (scroll down past the dodge WCJS photos) - the same photo was discussed in the MRS Journal some time ago. 

 

I think it was specifically the Ayrshire Gathering - a general society event, including Highland games, yachting regatta, and all the other appurtenances of an aristocratic holiday camp - that I had in mind; as @Caley Jim says, that photo isn't specifically linked with that event, it's just a likely possibility.

[Compound2632]

Re. the Midland Kentish Town - Herne Hill workings, an interesting photo has popped up on another thread, on which I have commented:

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Compound2632

[duncan]

There are many photos of the gentry's steam yachts in Oban, often I suspect connected with Royal Highland Yacht Club events.  Incidently, the RHYC is one of the few clubs allowed to fly a plain blue ensign, most royal clubs have to fly a defaced one (ie with a badge).

[Dave Hunt]

At long last I've completed track laying on my embryonic S7 Midland MPD layout. It's taken me since April to come up with a track plan, get the wood, make the baseboards and lay all the track but since it's all hand made, all the pointwork has scale chairs (made for me by my mate Crimson Rambler) and it includes three 3-throw turnouts (which are a bu**er to make) I'm not too displeased with progress. With luck I'll survive long enough to finish it.....

 

An overall view from the entrance to the MPD

 

A view from the other (shed) end

 

The middle bit

 

The Schenectady is standing outside what will eventually be the elevated coaling stage

 

One of the 'orrible three throws - during their construction I cursed the Midland more than a few times for being so wedded to the damn things 

 

I'm not sure whether I'll need to put some scotch blocks and/or a catch point on the road up to the elevated coaling stage; I'll have to do a bit more looking at photographs - anyone got any ideas?

 

Just the wiring and point motor installation and connections to be done and I'll have a working layout that only needs buildings, scenery and all the other bits 'n pieces to finish it . I've also got to make a fiddle yard but at least it only needs to be long enough for a breakdown train.

 

Maybe five years?

 

Have a good 2020 everyone.

 

Dave

[Caley Jim]

58 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

One of the 'orrible three throws - during their construction I cursed the Midland more than a few times for being so wedded to the damn things 

Just be thankful they didn't use interlaced sleepers!  

 

Jim

[Regularity]

35 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Just be thankful they didn't use interlaced sleepers!  

 

Jim

Look at the previous picture, Jim...

[MR Chuffer]

Ok, my second reach-out now amongst fellow MR-ers. Brake vans, there was a thread recently about managing single verandah GW brake vans which I didn't know how to follow, but I do now though I can't find the thread anymore and so can't evaluate the conclusions.

 

I have seen photos of GW brake vans (Toads?) travelling verandah first but I have never seen a picture of a standard MR brake travelling verandah first, and I have fair number of MR books dating back to 1970.

 

Can someone enlighten me on MR custom and practice, is verandah first travel more frequent than I thought and what would be the impetus to turn a brake van at the end of a turn? And how was it turned, loco turntable where there was one or a wagon turntable where there wasn't?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Look at the previous picture, Jim...

 

but not on the 3-way point.

 

22 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Ok, my second reach-out now amongst fellow MR-ers. Brake vans, there was a thread recently about managing single verandah GW brake vans which I didn't know how to follow, but I do now though I can't find the thread anymore and so can't evaluate the conclusions.

 

I have seen photos of GW brake vans (Toads?) travelling verandah first but I have never seen a picture of a standard MR brake travelling verandah first, and I have fair number of MR books dating back to 1970.

 

Can someone enlighten me on MR custom and practice, is verandah first travel more frequent than I thought and what would be the impetus to turn a brake van at the end of a turn? And how was it turned, loco turntable where there was one or a wagon turntable where there wasn't?

 

The first challenge is to find photos that show the back end of a goods train at any period, let alone pre-grouping Midland. The photographic record is heavily biased towards the front end of express passenger trains.

 

Here are a couple of photos of whole goods trains at Monsal Dale that @Lecorbusier posted:

The first photo, I think the verandah end is at the rear; in the second one, I don't think one can actually make out the brake. 

 

Here's another he posted - which way round is the brake?

Frankly, I'd stake my Midland Railway Society membership on there being no favoured way round and no turning of brake vans. With the Midland design of van, I don't think there can have been much difference in visibility for the guard in the van looking out either end or of the guard leaning out from the verandah waving his flag, rolled-up newspaper, or what-not from the point of view of the men on the footplate, a shunter, or a signalman.

 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Look at the previous picture, Jim...

Ah!  But that's a plain turnout, not a three throw or a tandem pair.

 

Jim

Edited December 30, 2019 by Caley Jim

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Ah!  But that's a plain turnout, not a three throw or interlaced one.

 

Jim

 

That's Gauge 1, isn't it?