Midland Railway Company

[Dave Hunt]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For the avoidance of doubt, can it be clarified that (unless there is any further development of which I am unaware) this is a coronavirus-induced delay not a cancellation of the project? As will all things at present, patience is the watchword, though I have no doubt that the present crisis will also be putting an additional strain on already creaking local government finances. 

Stephen,

 

Up to last month the intention was to reopen in September. When I wrote that this is obviously not going to happen I was assuming that to be the case in view of the coronavirus situation and I have not yet heard anything official. Sorry if that came across as alarmist. Even though Derby Museums have had a cut in finances there was no suggestion that the Silk Mill project was in danger; with what has already been spent on it as well as the ongoing cost of remote storage I would imagine that financially it would not make sense to delay things more than necessary due to unforeseen circumstances.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

Thanks for that - which is as I thought. 

 

My teenage visit to Matlock Bath had two immediate outcomes that I rake up here for disapproval! One was the purchase in the shop of a Prototype Models kit for a London and North Western signal box, the other, a classic Ratio kit-bash of a pseudo-Great Western passenger brake van:

 

 

As I recall, that purchase left me dangerously skint - possibly not even 10p for a phone call home, should anything have gone wrong on the way back home. Looking back, the whole week was dicey by modern standards - a 15-year-old roaming the rails with just his Rover ticket and a packet of sandwiches, without any prior timetable research and quite likely not even telling his parents which direction he was heading in that day. I do recall being stuck at Worcester Shrub Hill for rather too long one evening, though in retrospect I could have got an earlier train from Foregate Street. 

 

The Ratio bash was inspired by one of the trains on the layout which did include such a vehicle - rather unlikely for the Peak Forest line I think. That was probably an accurate model. Mine is, I believe, close to what they call a V5. 

[Holmesfeldian]

I know it's in 2mm scale but have you been following this ?
 

 

[Crimson Rambler]

David, with the discussion a little earlier on the Matlock Bath Model Railway you might be interested in this:-

It was the printer's plate that I had made at work by the visual aids man Rhys from the drawing you produced.

Although I was involved in assisting with the running of the museum layout fortunately I was spared the anguish that David (and one or two others) were subjected to.

It was a terrible shame the layout could not be saved in its entirety as I think it was in several ways better than the then Derby Museum & Art Gallery layout. Still I suppose two good things came out of it - firstly its existence had prompted the formation of the MRS a year or so before and secondly I believe its high standard gave Mark Higginson the encouragement and impetus to promote the replacement of original Derby layout by the one in the Silk Mill. Hopefully it will not be too long before we can see it again.

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lecorbusier]

On 09/04/2020 at 23:16, Dave Hunt said:

The Matlock Bath layout had two separate scenic sections. The larger one was Millers Dale with the two viaducts and the smaller was Monsal Dale and Headstones viaduct. Most of the locomotives were made by David White although for a while two of mine ran on it as well. The carriages and wagons were David's. The layout was built in the mid-70s, mainly by Davidand Neil Jury although Norman Solomon did some of the later work on it, then in 1982 was taken over by the Midland Railway Society who set up a limited company and ran it as a museum managed by a gentleman who also ran the shop attached to it as a separate business. Unfortunately it never attracted sufficient visitors and lost money so eventually Derby Council, who had advanced much of the money for the layout to be bought from David in the form of a loan, foreclosed on it and the layout was broken up. During all this I was Chairman of the MRS and the limited company and had a good few sleepless nights as a result but it was a great shame that the layout was broken up, it was a first class piece of work.

 

Dave   

As a teenager I used to cycle down to the Matlock Bath shop and drool over the layout. I also have a K's Dean Goods (Outside Frames) which I was bought as a present from the display case for some exam results .... quite a present looking back on it! I believe that the builders name was Eon?

 

Attached are a couple of articles on the layout which might bring back happy memories.

 

Interesting that my current project is a 4mm model of Monsaldale station! How lasting formative exepriences can be.

Railway Modeller-Monsaldale 1977.pdf Railway Modeller-Monsaldale Millersdale.pdf

[Dave Hunt]

Thank you for posting that, Tim. I well remember writing the 1983 article and Brian Monaghan's visit to photograph the layout. Unfortunately my copy of the Railway Modeller went missing during a house move and it is nice to be able to see it again.

 

Any chance of seeing your Monsaldale project in this thread?

 

Dave

[Barry O]

We have a little bit of the Midland through the Peak here in Leeds MRS CIO

 

 

Chapel-en-le-Frith (Central). My next task is to motorise the signals.

 

As we do have a lot of stock available for the layout (set around the time of  the Blue Pullmans) we do see some strange locomotives

 

 

we do have the odd (or rather a lot of) lurking Midland Locos.. although currently no fully lined out Midland Stock..you never know..

 

Baz

 

Baz

 

[Lecorbusier]

52 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Thank you for posting that, Tim. I well remember writing the 1983 article and Brian Monaghan's visit to photograph the layout. Unfortunately my copy of the Railway Modeller went missing during a house move and it is nice to be able to see it again.

 

Any chance of seeing your Monsaldale project in this thread?

 

Dave

That is gratifying.

 

I have a thread running over on the scaleforum for Monsaldale ... link is below my signature ... but I warn you it is very much a slow burner with much research and test track building to develop skills and techniques. I was starting from a low base ... but I think the skills and knowledge levels are slowly coalescing.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Lecorbusier

[Compound2632]

I immediately recognised that RM May 1983 cover but, oddly, I can't find it in my small collection of "kept" RMs.

[Lecorbusier]

21 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Any chance of seeing your Monsaldale project in this thread?

 

Dave

 

I currently have very little which is specifically relevant to my Monsaldale aspirations as I am concentrating on experimentation around a test track. However I do have a Johnson 1f tank which is almost ready for the paint shop. This was shedded at Rowsley in 1902 and I intend it to pull a short ballast and maintenace train running through the station. The prototype is .....

 

 

This is the state of the loco ... which took a Craftsman kit as its starting point but has been much altered. The chassis is scratch built and it is powered by the protocab system. You can also see one of the 3 plank ballast wagons I am also scratch building for this train in the 2nd and third photos.  Anyway ... it gives a taster.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lecorbusier

[Regularity]

Possessed of a grace, charm and beauty that had disappeared by the time the LMS turned out its "Jockos"/"Humpies"...

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Possessed of a grace, charm and beauty that had disappeared by the time the LMS turned out its "Jockos"/"Humpies"...

 

To make a fair comparison, one needs to compare this:

 

 

with this:

 

 

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

I just love the Johnson open cab engines and yours looks like a nice little example in the making Tim. The ballast wagon looks pretty good too. Thanks for posting the pictures - I look forward to seeing them post paint shop.

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

22 hours ago, Barry O said:

We have a little bit of the Midland through the Peak here in Leeds MRS CIO

 

 

Chapel-en-le-Frith (Central). My next task is to motorise the signals.

 

As we do have a lot of stock available for the layout (set around the time of  the Blue Pullmans) we do see some strange locomotives

 

 

we do have the odd (or rather a lot of) lurking Midland Locos.. although currently no fully lined out Midland Stock..you never know..

 

Baz

 

That's a cracking layout Baz. Has it appeared in any of the modelling mags?

 

Dave

[Barry O]

Yes it was in Railway Modeller in november 2017.

 

We may get an article covering developments of the layout and stock at some point.

 

There is a thread on RMWeb

Baz

[Holmesfeldian]

On 20/04/2020 at 21:54, Compound2632 said:

I immediately recognised that RM May 1983 cover but, oddly, I can't find it in my small collection of "kept" RMs.

 

Railway Modeller-Monsaldale Millersdale.pdf

Edited April 22, 2020 by Holmesfeldian

[queensquare]

My good friend John Aldrick kindly volunteered to paint my c.1922 Manchester Diner (later Pines) for my Bath layout. He has done a fantastic job though they are currently on lockdown with him in Leeds though they have been out for a run on his Ivybridge layout - albeit with a funny green engine on the front.

I have one blue engine ready and another waiting to be painted - seen along with the coaches before they went to John.

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Magnificent!

[John-Miles]

I can't see Ivo Peters

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

I can't see Ivo Peters

 

He would be about five years old, I believe.

[Barry O]

John is a master at Painting and lining. He brings 2mm FS coaches to the club.. they are fully lined but some of us struggle to see thecoaches not just teh lining!

baz

[Dave Hunt]

A bit more progress on the MPD. I've done all the footboarding and finished the turntable surround. Not all Midland sheds had footboarding in front of the coaling stage but some did; the extent of it varied tremendously where it was installed and I may have overdone it somewhat but I think it looks OK. I've also chosen to put some in front of the office block and across to the turntable. The turntable surrounds also varied a lot with some having stone slabs whilst others had wooden boards (pieces of sleepers?) or a mixture of both and there were sometimes but not always raised wooden strips for foot purchase. I've used wooden boards without extra strips. The point motors have all been boxed in and those intended to be inside buildings are matt black so that they don't show up through windows.

 

I'm having a bit of a break from the layout now and dealing with a D&S Models 15 to steam breakdown crane kit that Jill bought me for my 50th birthday - I was 73 last Saturday! Ah, well, better late than never I guess. The next stage for the layout will be Slartiblartfasting the topography and making a start on the buildings. More bulletins in due course.

 

This is the footboarding in front of the coaling stage and down to the ash pit. It is actually quite a bit darker than the photograph suggests but my photographic skills are somewhat akin to a fish's cycling ability and try as I might I can't get the bl**dy camera to darken it. Conversely, the ash pit is actually lighter inside than shown... Bu**er.  

Next is the turntable and well with the wooden surround. Once again it is quite a bit darker in reality than shown here. The little square patch bottom left is a grating covering the steps for access to the well.

 

This is the footboarding in front of what will be the offices and stores. The black box houses three point motors and will be inside the building. A lot of MPDs had the stores and offices attached to the shed but if I did that they would be hidden behind the shed itself as I want to have a siding in front on which the breakdown train will be parked. Therefore, since there were some places where the stores and offices were separate from the shed so that is what I have chosen to do.

 

 

I must confess that part way through installing the footboarding round pointwork I was tempted to ditch the idea and just settle for ballasting up to rail level but I persisted and eventually, after a lot of fiddling and swearing, managed to get it all done and still have the locos able to run through it. It's all 1/16" ply scribed to represent planks and stuck onto balsa wood strips that are in turn glued to the sleepers. The turrntable surround is also pieces of 1/16" ply stuck onto balsa strips that were steamed and bent into curves then stuck to the baseboard.  All the woodwork is painted with Precision track dirt paint and weathered with Greenscene powders. The turntable well is surfaced with oven dried soil sieved and ground into dust and sprinkled onto thinned PVA then painted with washes of dirty brush cleaning turps and again finished off with weathering powders. The ash pit has lumps of balsa wood stuck on the floor that are then covered with thick matt varnish and a mixture of ash and coal dust sprinkled on.

 

More in due course.

 

Dave

[Rambler]

Midland Railway Ventilated Van

 

I'm using parts of the two Slaters kit for the 10T vans to produce a 7mm model of the Ventilated Van that is pictured on page 80 of Midland Album and also in Midland Wagons, volume 1, page 136. The caption in Midland Wagons suggest that this might be a D378 van with a replacement door. It has also got replacement brake gear but you can't see much in the darkness under the body, so its not clear whether its got two sets of brake gear or just the one set on the nearest side. You also can't see where the vacuum cylinder is located - I'm assuming its got one as the van is XP rated and has a star on the solebar to show where the vacuum release is located. I'd be grateful if anyone who has access to a better print of the photo (by H. C Casserley) could let me know whether any more details of the brake system can be seen.

 

This is how far I've got with the build:

 

 

I was also going to ask how these vans would be painted in the "large LMS" livery but I've since found one in the background of a photo in Midland Record No 2, page 61. This shows the L and S hard up against the bottom of the second and third set of louvres and the M low down in the upper segment of the door. The M appear to be slightly higher than the other letters. Many years ago I built a fully-fitted van in 4mm and painted it in this style (see below). In 4mm its possible to have the L, M , and S lined up but the 7mm mouldings are slightly different (and more accurate, I think) so the letters might have to be smaller, or not lined up.

 

 

Eric Ramsay

[Compound2632]

As the photo shows this vehicle in LMS 1936 livery (taken in 1948), there's also the possibility that it didn't get the replacement unboarded door until after 1936, in which case the question of where the 12" (?) lettering went is moot.

 

What we see in the photo is the usual LMS arrangement for single-sided brakes operated by a lever on either side, with the Morton clutch on the brake side - there will be a plain lever on the far side. If you look again at the photo, you will see that the way you have set up the push rods on the tumbler, pushing the lever down would move the brakes further off rather than putting them on! The left-hand push rod should go over and the right hand under.

 

Is it vac braked or just piped?

[Compound2632]

The longer we go into these strange times, the more obsessive I find I become over trivia, So here's a topic sparked by a comment  made by @Dave Hunt on the ER thread, where we were once again trying in vain to dish the myth of the "Midland Small Engine policy". SPEED.

 

O.S. Nock's classic Speed Records on Britain's Railways (David & Charles, 1971) was one of the first railway books I had. My copy - the Pan paperback edition - long ago fell apart, its yellowing much-thumbed pages now being held together by sellotape and affection. In the chapter Nineteenth Century: a Summary, Nock tabulates those instances of speed over 80 mph for which he could find good documentary evidence, whilst acknowledging that it is likely that some of the trains involved in the 1895 Race to the North attained speeds in this range, inferred from guards' journals. His table lists thirteen locomotives of different classes, three of which are Midland. These are, in ascending order of speed:

 

1562 Class 4-4-0 No. 1563, 80½ mph. The source for this appears to be E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century Vol. 2 (Heffer, 1952, reprinted from The Railway Magazine, 1919-20) pp. 132-4. In the context of a discussion about the higher speeds being attained by older locomotives towards the end of the century, he gives a log of a run with the 2 pm down Manchester express in early 1899 between St Pancras and Kettering, the train being 160 tons behind No. 1563. Descending the long stretches of 1:200 over the 14 miles from milepost 34½ to milepost 48½, the average speed was 73.7 mph, with the mile between the 46th and 47th posts covered in 45 seconds, a speed of 80.0 mph - Ahrons tabulates it thus so it's not quite clear where Nock gets his extra ½ mph! Ahrons states that he was in agreement with Charles Rous-Marten that up until the mid-late 1890s, 75 mph was around the maximum speed, but even that was rare. He mentions recording 70.6 mph with another engine of the 1562 Class on the London line and 73½ mph with No. 1573, descending from Blea Moor towards Settle. He attributes the increased maximum speed to the increase weight and hardness of the 100 lb/yard rail that was becoming common on main lines, in place of the 85 lb/yard rail of earlier years, along with greater tensile strength of locomotive tyres.

 

800 Class 2-4-0 No. not stated, 81¾ mph. The source for this is apparently the same passage from Ahrons. He gives the number as 828 and the year also 1899. He gives the maximum speed as 81.8 mph, attained on the 1:176 down from St Albans to Radlett with a 170 ton train. He states that the previous maximum speed he knew of with an engine of the 800 Class was 72 mph.

 

115 Class 4-2-2 No. 117, 90 mph. Ahrons mentions this, op. cit. p. 136, the measurement having been taken by Rous-Marten. The location was, as for No. 1563, the long 1:200 descent towards Bedford. From Nock's account, 13 miles were covered at an average speed of 80 mph. In the June 1906 number of The Railway Magazine, in an article On speeds attained or attainable by British express locomotives, Rous -Marten gives the year as 1897 and states that three successive quarter-miles were recorded at 10 seconds, giviving the 90 mph maximum. He refers back to an earlier article, not reproduced in the compilation of his articles by Charles Fryer [British Locomotive Practice & Performance (Patrick Stephens Ltd, 1990)]. In the article mentioned, Rous-Marten states that despite several attempts at collusion with drivers the highest speed subsequently obtained on that stretch with a 115 Class engine was 85 mph, leading Nock to conclude that wind speed and direction may have been unusually favourable. He does, however state that this was his first instance of a record of 90 mph. I suppose it is on that basis that @Dave Hunt remarked that this was at the time the world record. As far as I can see, the only possible rival claims might be from France or the United States. In France, speed was limited to 120 km/h (75 mph) by a law of Napoleon III, with the timing of trains being the preserve of Anglo-Saxon eccentrics such as the Rev. W.J. Scott and Rous-Marten, whilst American claims seem to be in the realm of folklore and fantasy. 

 

The 115 Class were the first Midland engines to have piston valves, to the design of S.W. Johnson's Chief Draughtsman from Cowlairs and Stratford days, W.M. Smith. Smith had been in Japan from the time of Johnson's appointment to the Midland and his own as works manager at Gateshead in 1883, under Alexander McDonnell, who had also recruited Wilson Worsdell as Chief Draughtsman. As far as I can gather, Smith became NER Chief Draughtsman when Wilson succeeded his brother as NER Locomotive Superintendent in 1890. However, he was clearly involved with the testing of T.W.'s Worsdell-von Borries two-cylinder compounds, as he is the author of the report from which Nock extracts the 90 mph speed record of the locomotive to which he gives first billing in his table, above No. 117, the Class J 4-2-2 No. 1517. This maximum speed was attained under test; unfortunately Nock gives no further details. This engine was built in August 1889, with the remaining nine members of the class appearing from November 1889. This delay suggests that the tests may have occurred in the early autumn of that year; at any rate probably while T.W. Worsdell was still in charge and certainly before Wilson Worsdell had the class rebuilt as simples in 1896. Presumably it is the earlier date that causes Nock to give this engine top billing. Nevertheless No. 117's 90 mph is the highest documented speed attained with a service train in Great Britain the nineteenth century.

 

Mention of W.M. Smith of course brings us to the highest authenticated speed record for a Midland locomotive either in Midland days or subsequently:

 

2631 Class 4-4-0 No. 2632, 92 mph. This was recorded by Charles Rous-Marten and reported by him in The Railway Magazine in November 1903. The train was an up Scotch Express, 11:50 am from Carlisle, loading to approximately 240 tons. From Aisgill to Blea Moor, speed was around 65 mph - 67 mph and once on the 1:100 descent through Ribblesdale, speed rose rapidly, with 0.2 s being knocked off successive quarter-mile timings until speed levelled out with "several successive quarter-miles each in the same time" of 9.8 s. The date of this run is unclear. The first two Compounds were completed in January 1902. The departure time from Carlisle is that of the 9:30 pm from Edinburgh in the July, August, and September 1903 timetable. The Midland Railway Study Centre has copies of the timetables for 1902 and earlier in 1903; I only have the July 1902 Carriage Marshalling document, in which the morning train is 9:20 am from Glasgow and 9:30 am from Edinburgh, combined at Carlisle, dep. 11.55 am, and loading to =12½ or around 200 tons. This suggests Rous-Marten's run was in 1903. He also reports a speed of 88.2 mph with the down afternoon express, on the descent from Aisgill. He gives no detailed timings. He writes, in his frustratingly elliptical manner: "I may be asked whether even this 91.8 mph is my present 'record', and if so I must reply, 'No'. But as yet I am not authorised to publish my highest." He goes on to explain that he will not publish exceptional speeds without a written assurance that to do so would not be prejudicial to the driver or the company. "Such assurance I have received in the case of Mr. Johnson's engine".

 

In the June 1906 article, Rous-Marten goes on to list the locomotive classes with which he had obtained speeds between 90 mph and 91.8 mph (i.e. quarter-miles in 10.0 s to 9.8 s) since 1900: Great Western Atbara and City classes; LSWR 706 Class - T9, I believe he means; LBSC B4; Midland Belpaires and Compounds; Great Central 11B and atlantic - though he does not specify which type; L&Y 1093 and 1400 Classes; and Nord altlantics (on the Nord, not the Great Western). Elsewhere he teases with claims of 96 mph with a Belpaire and 97½ mph with an Atbara; in the article mentioned he also writes: "The absolute maximum speed that I have ever recorded upon any railway on earth was reached in a special trial which I prefer not to indicate more specifically than by saying that the engine was four-coupled and had 6 ft 8 in driving wheels. On this occasion a series of quarter-miles occupied the following times: 10 seconds, 9.8 seconds, 9.4 seconds, 9.2 seconds, 8.8 seconds - the last of course representing a rate of 102.3 miles an hour. [...] The locality was on a somewhat sharply falling gradient..."

 

The debate around City of Truro's descent from Whiteball with the Ocean Mails ("special trial" indeed!) on 9 May 1904 brings up the question of the accuracy of these 19th century and early 20th century timings. It is evident that Rous-Marten was using stop-watches that had a resolution of 0.2s and timing relied on observation of the mileposts and quarter-mileposts. While the position of these can be presumed to be accurate to at least better than a few yards - say better than 1% - the moment at which the stop-watch button is pressed relies on human observation and reaction time; however in skilled hands one would expect the reaction time delay to be at least constant. If we assume that a reading of 10.0 s actually denotes a range of 9.9 s - 10.1 s for a quarter-mile, the speed will be in the range 89.1 mph - 90.9 mph, or, one might reasonably approximate, 90 +/- 1 mph.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Compound2632