Midland Railway Company

[technohand]

I don't know, all the above sounds logical. I do know that the reason for capacity limits on turntables was less about fit and more about being able to move the engine  to the point of balance, "the rock" otherwise some of them wouldn't move at all. Could it be most of us are right handed so you would tend to pull or push with the right hand outermost. I rowed bow side as I was left handed.

Tony 

[Regularity]

16 minutes ago, technohand said:

I rowed bow side as I was left handed.

You were left handed?

[GWR8700]

Does anyone know if the MR Flatirons would have made it as far as Buxton on their Manchester workings?

I'm wanting to have a go with the SEFinecast kit and possibly run it with the Ratio suburbans

[jamie92208]

18 minutes ago, GWR8700 said:

Does anyone know if the MR Flatirons would have made it as far as Buxton on their Manchester workings?

I'm wanting to have a go with the SEFinecast kit and possibly run it with the Ratio suburbans

I would presume that they did as it was the end of a suburban working from Manchester but I have no specialist knowledge.

Rule 1 applies though That's why I've got a Baldwin mogul on a layout set in 1923.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, GWR8700 said:

Does anyone know if the MR Flatirons would have made it as far as Buxton on their Manchester workings?

I'm wanting to have a go with the SEFinecast kit and possibly run it with the Ratio suburbans

 

The Ratio suburbans are spot on for the Manchester South District workings, though I doubt they got as far as Buxton, much. They spent their time trundling to and from Between Manchester Central, Stockport, and Cheadle Heath.

 

But do not use the 4-compartment brake thirds - none of these were built for the Manchester sets, which were formed: 6-compt brake third / 2 x third / 4 x first / third / 6-compt brake third and remained so until withdrawal between 1938 and 1947.

 

At least in 1922, the Buxton passenger service was:

• A shuttle to Millers Dale, with the addition of the St Pancras through coach. The train was formed brake third / compo / brake third; from photographic evidence Clayton bogie arc-roof carriages of 1880s vintage, in 1908.
• Three morning trains to Manchester and three evening trains back, formed brake third / 3 x compo / brake compo, and some similar sets working Buxton - Chinley - Sheffield and back. This could well have been Clayton 48 ft square-light clerestories per Ratio, though Ratio never did the D508 compo / brake compo which was the most numerous (and hence most useful) type.

 

Refs. 

R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 274 and Appendix 29.

Midland Railway Passenger Train Marshalling Arrangements from October 2nd, 1922 (Midland Railway Study Centre Item 00625) pp. 128-134.

Photograph, Midland Railway Study Centre Item 60297 (amongst others).

Edited February 27, 2021 by Compound2632
sp.

[technohand]

6 hours ago, Regularity said:

You were left handed?

A confusion of tenses past and present, O level English failed!

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, technohand said:

A confusion of tenses past and present, O level English failed!

 

What you wrote was perfectly reasonable. The fact that you were at the time left handed was relevant to your rowing position; the fact that you are still left handed has no bearing on the matter. 

[GWR8700]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Ratio suburbans are spot on for the Manchester South District workings, though I doubt they got as far as Buxton, much. They spent their time trundling to and from Between Manchester Central, Stockport, and Cheadle Heath.

 

But do not use the 4-compartment brake thirds - none of these were built for the Manchester sets, which were formed: 6-compt brake third / 2 x third / 4 x first / third / 6-compt brake third and remained so until withdrawal between 1938 and 1947.

 

At least in 1922, the Buxton passenger service was:

• A shuttle to Millers Dale, with the addition of the St Pancras through coach. The train was formed brake third / compo / brake third; from photographic evidence Clayton bogie arc-roof carriages of 1880s vintage, in 1908.
• Thee morning trains to Manchester and three evening trains back, formed brake third / 3 x compo / brake compo, and some similar sets working Buxton - Chinley - Sheffield and back. This could well have been Clayton 48 ft square-light clerestories per Ratio, though Ratio never did the D508 compo / brake compo which was the most numerous (and hence most useful) type.

 

Refs. 

R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 274 and Appendix 29.

Midland Railway Passenger Train Marshalling Arrangements from October 2nd, 1922 (Midland Railway Study Centre Item 00625) pp. 128-134.

Photograph, Midland Railway Study Centre Item 60297 (amongst others).

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I would presume that they did as it was the end of a suburban working from Manchester but I have no specialist knowledge.

Rule 1 applies though That's why I've got a Baldwin mogul on a layout set in 1923.

 

Jamie

Thank you both!

Is the D508 coach available from any other supplier or is that something needs to be scratchbuilt?

I haven't seen any pics of flatirons on any part of the Buxton to Monsal Dale section but I do think I've seen one at Derby and I think one at Chinley.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, GWR8700 said:

Is the D508 coach available from any other supplier or is that something needs to be scratchbuilt?

 

Yes, Branchlines do a kit that provides etched brass sides to go with the Ratio kit. 

 

12 minutes ago, GWR8700 said:

I haven't seen any pics of flatirons on any part of the Buxton to Monsal Dale section but I do think I've seen one at Derby and I think one at Chinley.

 

Manchester had them and Derby had them (and Nottingham, Birmingham, Leicester) but they were all chiefly used for suburban work in their own local area. But I suppose one would see a Manchester one from time to time going to Derby for a heavy overhaul that was beyond Belle Vue's capabilities.

[GWR8700]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, Branchlines do a kit that provides etched brass sides to go with the Ratio kit. 

 

 

Manchester had them and Derby had them (and Nottingham, Birmingham, Leicester) but they were all chiefly used for suburban work in their own local area. But I suppose one would see a Manchester one from time to time going to Derby for a heavy overhaul that was beyond Belle Vue's capabilities.

Thanks, do you know if they do those in Midland condition?

[Compound2632]

Just now, GWR8700 said:

Thanks, do you know if they do those in Midland condition?

 

Please specify your date of interest!

[GWR8700]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Please specify your date of interest!

Pre WW1

Anytime from 1906 to 1914

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, GWR8700 said:

Pre WW1

Anytime from 1906 to 1914

 

OK. The Ratio clerestories are in late-ish Midland / early LMS condition; they're right for the post-1906 livery because they have the slightly deeper section of eves beading near the middle, where the word MIDLAND should go. The fly in the ointment or pain in the butt is the door ventilators replacing the door toplights; I'm not certain when this modification started being made but probably post-Great War. There are plenty of photos of carriages without the ventilators well into LMS days but none before 1914, I think. The Branchlines D508 doesn't have these ventilators so is good for 1902 onwards. 

 

The real frustration kicks in if you're modelling c. 1902 as I am - not only should one not have the door ventilators but the brake ends should be without duckets. There are other minor issues for these carriages as built, such as the arrangement of the end steps and roof furniture.

[GWR8700]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

OK. The Ratio clerestories are in late-ish Midland / early LMS condition; they're right for the post-1906 livery because they have the slightly deeper section of eves beading near the middle, where the word MIDLAND should go. The fly in the ointment or pain in the butt is the door ventilators replacing the door toplights; I'm not certain when this modification started being made but probably post-Great War. There are plenty of photos of carriages without the ventilators well into LMS days but none before 1914, I think. The Branchlines D508 doesn't have these ventilators so is good for 1902 onwards. 

 

The real frustration kicks in if you're modelling c. 1902 as I am - not only should one not have the door ventilators but the brake ends should be without duckets. There are other minor issues for these carriages as built, such as the arrangement of the end steps and roof furniture.

That's really informative thank you.

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the fact that you are still left handed has no bearing on the matter

Unless the matter happens to humour...

(Sorry, Technohand, couldn’t resist it.)

Edited February 27, 2021 by Regularity

[Holmesfeldian]

Whilst on the subject of Midland rolling stock - can any learned members of the group comment on these coaches as I have next to zero knowledge of the subject matter. 

 

These are all taken at Dronfield and Unstone

[Compound2632]

@Holmesfeldian, lovely photos and real carriage-spotter bait.

 

The two of Unstone viaduct are both post-1907 (loco numbers on tenders and carriages in post-1906 livery with large class designation numbers on the doors. In the first photo, with cows:

• H-boilered 4-4-0, can't make out the number
• 2 x D399 19 ft 6 in horsebox
• foreign horsebox (note widows are higher up)
• D412 prize cattle van
• D529 25 ft arc-roof 4-wheel passenger brake van
• 3 x D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third

Bottom photo, without cows:

• 1400 Class 2-4-0 No. 229
• D397 16 ft 2 in horsebox
• D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third
• non-corridor clerestory brake; I can't decide if its a D530 31 ft 6-wheel passenger brake van or the brake end of a bogie vehicle.

The Dronfield photo is the one that really appeals to me, as it's closer to my modelling period. It is, however, post-Feb 1903, as the lamp-iron has been removed from the smokebox door, following adoption of the RCH headcodes, leaving just the one at the top of the smokebox, but before the Deeleyfication of the smokebox and chimney - i.e. probably before c. 1907-8.

• Unidentified 2-4-0
• D399 19 ft 6 in horsebox
• D530 31 ft square-light clerestory 6-wheel passenger brake van 
• D263 40 ft arc roof bogie composite
• D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third
• D491 33 ft 6 in square-light clerestory 6-wheel third
• D499 48 ft square-light clerestory bogie lavatory third brake

There's not much first class accommodation in these trains.

 

When it comes to identifying the Clayton arc-roof carriages of the 1880s / early 90s in train photos, counting the door ventilators is the first step. As a rule of thumb:

• five - 6-wheeler
• six - 40 ft bogie
• seven - 43 ft or 45 ft bogie
• more - 54 ft 12-wheeler

After that, it comes down to spotting where there's a wider panel between compartments, indicating first class compartments.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Compound2632

[John-Miles]

For those who model in 4mm, this is a prototype view of the forthcoming 1102 kit from Cam Kits. The proprietor is a friend so I am not making any recommendations. It is expected the kit will be on sale in July or August. It looks like it should be easy to build as the boiler and fittings come ready made in resin.

[Compound2632]

@John-Miles, do you have contact details for Cam Kits?

 

Although the class is so strongly associated with South Wales, Saltley had three (possibly outstationed at Pleck) for working the Walsall Wood branch.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Compound2632

[John-Miles]

His email is  <camkits4u@gmail.com>. His name is Richard Evans and he lives in north Cardiff alongside the Rhymney main line.

[technohand]

Looks good. Could like one to add to the Midland Railway Society Modellers web site when in production.

Tony 

[Tricky]

Just looking through the latest edition of MRSJ, any ideas what colour the D834 van is on page 27?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Tricky said:

Just looking through the latest edition of MRSJ, any ideas what colour the D834 van is on page 27?

 

I think that one - which is a Weighing Machine Adjusting Van rather than a Signal Department van - is red oxide, i.e. the same colour as Engineer's Department wagons (in the 20th century), cranes, match trucks, and mess and tool vans. (Although some mess and tool vans do seem to have been grey). I wouldn't like to say what colour the D731 Signal Department van in the previous issue, which triggered my comment, was. There don't seem to be many photos of these around. The others in Midland Wagons are either much earlier - 1870s/80s - and clearly grey; or in LMS days with peeling paint. The exception is the other photo of a D834 van, in late LMS / early BR days (?) which I would says is also red oxide.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think that one - which is a Weighing Machine Adjusting Van rather than a Signal Department van - is red oxide, i.e. the same colour as Engineer's Department wagons (in the 20th century), cranes, match trucks, and mess and tool vans. (Although some mess and tool vans do seem to have been grey). I wouldn't like to say what colour the D731 Signal Department van in the previous issue, which triggered my comment, was. There don't seem to be many photos of these around. The others in Midland Wagons are either much earlier - 1870s/80s - and clearly grey; or in LMS days with peeling paint. The exception is the other photo of a D834 van, in late LMS / early BR days (?) which I would says is also red oxide.

How can you be sure they're the same shade ?

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

How can you be sure they're the same shade ?

 

Probabilities, not certainties.