Midland Railway Company

[PenrithBeacon]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Probabilities, not certainties.

I think it's highly improbable that they are the same shade. But we will never know

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think it's highly improbable that they are the same shade. But we will never know

 

Reading your remark through again in the context of my post, I think you are talking about Midland Wagons Plate 238, official photo of Weighing Machine Adjusting Van 7479, ex-works in what is most likely red oxide, although Essery suggests black as a less likely alternative, and Plate 239, enthusiast's photo Signal Department Van M41644 in service in the early 50s? In which case I agree with you  - my first response was taking your remark more generally. What is a likely colour for the latter? @Dave Hunt tells me that ex-Midland cranes (and by implication match wagons and other support vehicles) were "always red" which I'm not convinced is true in all cases, though I'm prepared to believe that ones that were red in Midland days remained red. And what colour are these mess vans at Aston in the late 50s?

[PenrithBeacon]

Departmental vermilion perhaps but it seems to have had a repair too.

[Dave Hunt]

Stephen, I have obviously misled you. The evidence I have for saying that ex-Midland cranes continued in red after the Grouping came from a letter from Roscoe Turner who worked at Bescot in the '30s in which he stated that to his knowledge at least some of the ex-Midland cranes were red in the mid '30s and it was his opinion that they weren't repainted black at least until the LMS renumbered them. This applied to the 15 tonners and bigger, which were red in MR days, but I don't know whether any of the smaller ones were so treated.

 

Sorry if I confused things.

 

Dave

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dave Hunt

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I have obviously misled you.

 

No, not misled at all. Simply me misremembering - not having gone back to check what you had actually said. 

[Crimson Rambler]

Another successful AGM was held by the Midland Railway Society yesterday. As was the case last year it was 'virtual' but all being well we will meet in person next year albeit with a Zoom or similar facility to allow our more remote members enjoy the proceedings.

 

I strongly recommend those of you who are interested in the Midland - presumably to a greater or lesser extent all who read this topic - to join the Midland Railway Society. It has a wealth of information for the modeller and with the Silk Mill Museum (aka The Museum of Making) opening later this year more of the goodies it contains will become available.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

I strongly recommend those of you who are interested in the Midland - presumably to a greater or lesser extent all who read this topic - to join the Midland Railway Society. It has a wealth of information for the modeller and with the Silk Mill Museum (aka The Museum of Making) opening later this year more of the goodies it contains will become available.

 

And for anyone who hasn't yet sampled it, a browse of the Study Centre's online catalogue is recommended! Just put a random word such as "elephant" into the search and you'll be away going down different paths for many a happy quarter of an hour!

[Northroader]

I entered “D299” in the C&W search. Guess what it said?

Edited April 26, 2021 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I entered “D299” in the C&W search. Guess what it said?

 

Nothing, unless you used the search intelligently.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[technohand]

Midland Railway Society Chairman’s Cup Finalists.

Here are some pictures of the entries which made the finals of the MRS modelling competition from the last AGM.

Notes are attached on methods used.

Little Salkeld:

The Station Building, waiting shelter and Weighbridge Office were all scratch built from plastic sheet on a balsa wood base with etched brass windows.

The signal box is a modified Ratio kit.

Kirtley 0-4-4 Passenger Tank Engine:

This 7mm/ft. Scale model is completely scratch built except for boiler fittings from the Laurie Griffin range. Drawings of the Dubs version were not available, so a Drawing of the Beyer Peacock type was modified. The model is powered by an MSC two stage gearbox with a 12-volt Mashima motor. The loco is battery powered and radio controlled by a Deltang Rx-61 speed controller using a 9-volt battery which gives sufficient power.

The frames were from 0.022inch nickel silver sheet with the body from 0.010inch brass sheet.

Johnson 1698 class 0-6-0 Goods Locomotive

The model to 4mm/ft scale EM gauge is a 50/50 mix of kit and scratch building depicting a Johnson 1698 class engine finished in fully lined livery as running circa. 1905.

The model is constructed to exhibition standards and is highly detailed as accurately as 4mm. scale will allow. All the detail components, sandboxes, sandbox covers, mushroom smoke box lubricators, lamp irons, tender toolbox, coal rails, brake standard and many other parts were scratch built. The engine 1759 depicted is a steam brake only one.

It is not surprising that this was the winning entry.

[technohand]

Attached Further pictures of the entries.re some pictures and notes relevant to the MRS Chairman's cup competition.

Edited May 13, 2021 by technohand

[eldavo]

I have a query for the illustrious members of the forum who are interested in the Midland.  I'm in the process of building an O gauge layout based on Midland practices, currently named Covidale.  I'm starting to realize just how little I actually know about the subject!

 

I have a number of facing points which of course should be equipped with facing point locks.  The Midland frequently used patented  economical facing point locks that allowed a turnout to be operated and locked with a single lever in the signalbox.  Were these used on double and single slips?  If so, does anyone have references, diagrams or photos of such a set up?

 

All help greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

[jamie92208]

9 minutes ago, eldavo said:

I have a query for the illustrious members of the forum who are interested in the Midland.  I'm in the process of building an O gauge layout based on Midland practices, currently named Covidale.  I'm starting to realize just how little I actually know about the subject!

 

I have a number of facing points which of course should be equipped with facing point locks.  The Midland frequently used patented  economical facing point locks that allowed a turnout to be operated and locked with a single lever in the signalbox.  Were these used on double and single slips?  If so, does anyone have references, diagrams or photos of such a set up?

 

All help greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

The Midland hardly ever used facing points.  Especially on the main line. Even some junctions, such as Garsdale required the branch train to reverse onto another road before taking the branch. Most double and single slips were on unsignalled sidings.

If you could post a copy of your track plan people would he happy to advise you.

 

Jamie

Edited May 16, 2021 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, eldavo said:

I have a number of facing points

 

As @jamie92208 says, that doesn't sound very Midlandish! Can you post a sketch of your proposed layout?

 

Notwithstanding such qualms, if you go to the Midland Railway Study Centre online catalogue and put facing point lock into the search facility, you'll find a number of drawings and some notes on how the EFPL worked. There is there a photo of Buxton showing an FPL on what is, topologically, a single slip, although it's really two points interlaced back to back.

 

Facing single or double slips on passenger running lines were generally abhorred though one might find them in the approaches to a large multi-platformed terminus, where a strict speed limit had to be observed.

[jamie92208]

Morecambe had 4 double slips to allow any train coming into the terminus to access any of the 6 platforms.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Morecambe had 4 double slips to allow any train coming into the terminus to access any of the 6 platforms.

 

Thumbnail catalogue image for MRSC Item 61085, which I believe is one of a series taken when the electric trains were new, showing a FPL cover in a double slip. 

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thumbnail catalogue image for MRSC Item 61085, which I believe is one of a series taken when the electric trains were new, showing a FPL cover in a double slip. 

I've done etches for that design of Gantry, it's in the staton throat at Green Ayre.  I've also got the track plan for that location but on yhe other computer. I'll try and post it in the morning.

 

Jamie

[lezz01]

Half way down P34 of Jonathan's Derwent Spa thread is a pic of the aforementioned FPL at Buxton, it is for the double slip just out of frame in the extreme righthand foreground, further down there is a link to the uncropped pic which shows the slip. There is also an article in one of the early Midland Record mags that has full drawings of a Midland FPL. 

Regards Lez. 

 

[Holmesfeldian]

On 28/02/2021 at 09:49, Compound2632 said:

@Holmesfeldian, lovely photos and real carriage-spotter bait.

 

The two of Unstone viaduct are both post-1907 (loco numbers on tenders and carriages in post-1906 livery with large class designation numbers on the doors. In the first photo, with cows:

• H-boilered 4-4-0, can't make out the number
• 2 x D399 19 ft 6 in horsebox
• foreign horsebox (note widows are higher up)
• D412 prize cattle van
• D529 25 ft arc-roof 4-wheel passenger brake van
• 3 x D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third

Bottom photo, without cows:

• 1400 Class 2-4-0 No. 229
• D397 16 ft 2 in horsebox
• D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third
• non-corridor clerestory brake; I can't decide if its a D530 31 ft 6-wheel passenger brake van or the brake end of a bogie vehicle.

The Dronfield photo is the one that really appeals to me, as it's closer to my modelling period. It is, however, post-Feb 1903, as the lamp-iron has been removed from the smokebox door, following adoption of the RCH headcodes, leaving just the one at the top of the smokebox, but before the Deeleyfication of the smokebox and chimney - i.e. probably before c. 1907-8.

• Unidentified 2-4-0
• D399 19 ft 6 in horsebox
• D530 31 ft square-light clerestory 6-wheel passenger brake van 
• D263 40 ft arc roof bogie composite
• D490 43 ft arc roof bogie third
• D491 33 ft 6 in square-light clerestory 6-wheel third
• D499 48 ft square-light clerestory bogie lavatory third brake

There's not much first class accommodation in these trains.

 

When it comes to identifying the Clayton arc-roof carriages of the 1880s / early 90s in train photos, counting the door ventilators is the first step. As a rule of thumb:

• five - 6-wheeler
• six - 40 ft bogie
• seven - 43 ft or 45 ft bogie
• more - 54 ft 12-wheeler

After that, it comes down to spotting where there's a wider panel between compartments, indicating first class compartments.

 

A further tasty image has come to light of Unstone viaduct if you could be so kind as to comment on the loco and rolling stock please...
 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

A further tasty image has come to light of Unstone viaduct if you could be so kind as to comment on the loco and rolling stock please...

 

Aha - something to keep the mind occupied in an insomniac moment.

 

The engine is, I think, a piston valve rather than a slide-valve 4-4-0 and from what can be made out of the shape of the front framing, probably 60 Class rather than 150 Class. 40 engines built 1898-1901. In 1902, they were allocated to Leicester, Bristol, Derby, Carlisle, Leeds, and Kentish Town. They were among the earliest candidates for reboilering with the large-diameter, round-topped firebox, H boiler, between May 1906 and May 1908, and subsequently to the superheater 483 Class in 1913-15.

 

The two horseboxes are flat-sided, with a compartment either side of the central horse-carrying section, making them 19 ft 6 in long D399 vehicles, of which 101 were built in 1887. The rest of the train is made up of four bogie clerestories of 1896-1902, flanking a 31 ft D530 clerestory passenger brake van. All three brake vehicles have the shallow lookouts fitted in 1902, so I think the date range for this photo can be narrowed down to summer 1902 - summer 1907.

 

Identifying the four carriages is tricky since they are blurred but I think the trailing ones are 48 ft vehicles: a D509 lavatory composite and a D499 lavatory third brake. I'm less confident about the leading pair but I think they must be 60 ft carriages - they look longer, three horseboxes long? If so, the leading one is probably a D518 lavatory composite brake, one of a pair built for the London-Manchester sets of 1898. I'm quite doubtful of the second carriage but on balance of probability I think it must be a D506 lavatory composite, ten of which were built in 1897, for London-Manchester and London-Bradford trains, rather than one of the three D484 lavatory thirds built for the Bristol-Bradford sets of 1896, which were the only other non-brake non-restaurant  60 ft carriages. 

 

This is clearly an express rather than an ordinary stopping train but other than that it's running via Sheffield, hard to say.

 

 

[jamie92208]

As promised last night, I've now woken up my laptop and have found the plans of Morecambe Station.  116 shows the complex of double slips as trains came into the station area from Heysham and Lancaster,

115 shows the platforms.

The lines that used to lead across the road to the pier can possibly be made out in pencil at the top left.

117 shows the gantries that spanned the platforms.

As an aside, there was never any covered servicing area for the electric stock. It was serviced on the centre roads between the platforms at Morecambe.   That must have been lovely work in winter.  There was a proposal to build a servicing shed at Heysham in the 20's and a plan exists showing that plus an extra electrified platform nearer to the quayside, bit it never got done.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

I think that Stephen is spot on regarding the identities of the vehicles in the picture that Nick posted. As to the class of train, though, I can't make out the headlamp code but the composition would fit in with Stephen's suggestion that it was an express. Such a train would have given the late Jack Braithwaite hours of satisfaction as he regarded the 60 Class as some of the loveliest engines of Johnson's superintendency (beaten only by No. 33) and the Bain clerestories as the finest rolling stock of the era.

 

I think he had a point.

 

I also think that it's time Jamie wrote the definitive work on the Morecambe electrification 

 

Dave

[eldavo]

Thanks for the response with regards to FPLs.  Here is a rough track plan of what I am building:

 

 

 

As you can see it's a terminus so facing points are unavoidable, even for the Midland!  I can see how economical FPLs can be fitted to the 3-way in the approach and also the point at the top of the plan on the exit from the shortest platform.  The issue is the double slip to the left of the signalbox where 3 legs of the complex need to be protected by FPLs.  I can't see quite how an eFPL can be used in this situation.  

 

I've searched the society catalogue and can't find an image of an eFPL on a double slip. Maybe they had to use a separate lever in these cases.

 

I have a 3D printed representation of an eFPL based on the drawings from the patent.

 

 

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by eldavo

[jamie92208]

6 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I think it's time that Jamie wrote the definitive work on the Morecambe electrification 

 

Dave

That deserves a Gee Thanks.  

 

 

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, eldavo said:

Thanks for the response with regards to FPLs.  Here is a rough track plan of what I am building:

 

 

 

As you can see it's a terminus so facing points are unavoidable, even for the Midland!  I can see how economical FPLs can be fitted to the 3-way in the approach and also the point at the top of the plan on the exit from the shortest platform.  The issue is the double slip to the left of the signalbox where 3 legs of the complex need to be protected by FPLs.  I can't see quite how an eFPL can be used in this situation.  

 

I've searched the society catalogue and can't find an image of an eFPL on a double slip. Maybe they had to use a separate lever in these cases.

 

I have a 3D printed representation of an eFPL based on the drawings from the patent.

 

 

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Looking at that Dave, you would, I think, only need FPL's on tracks that would carry passenger trains. I make that 5 in all.  There  was no need for them on sidi gs or in Goods yards or the loco shec. Also many of those would have been hand thrown and not connected to the signal box.

 

Jamie