RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted June 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 27, 2021 On 26/06/2021 at 22:07, Compound2632 said: One has to feel sorry for Deeley, whose reputation has been dogged by his smokebox door design... A groan button requirement if ever I read one. I agree that the photograph of the theatrical special shows one of the early, flat, Deeley smokebox doors. They were found to leak and were replaced with the dished type that went through iterations with six or seven dogs and narrow or wide seating rings as I have described before. As far as I am aware, the interiors of doors on virtually all Midland buildings were Denbigh Pottery cream with Indian Red/chocolate framing. Dave 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Rambler Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 Appearing below, for @Compound2632 are all the ED wagons captured in the St Albans shed photo. No 164A was a 156 Class 2-4-0 rebuilt (in effect renewed) in 1895 and lived at Wellingborough during the 1890s while No 1049, a Dubs built 700 Class 0-6-0 was at Cricklewood in the 'nineties until 1902 when it went to Leeds. What I find interesting is that while No 1049 is vacuum fitted, it doesn't appear to have any lining. It seems quite a few of the 0-6-0s employed on the London Extension in the 'ninties were unlined. The engine peeping out of the shed is an 800 Class 2-4-0 - I think its number begins with an '8' suggesting it is one from the series 820 to 829 which were all at Bedford at that time. Crimson Rambler 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2021 11 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said: Appearing below, for @Compound2632 are all the ED wagons captured in the St Albans shed photo. Hummm. Now I'm less sure. Several of the dropside wagons in the first extract clearly have three-plank ends. For wagons built to Drg. 213, the lot list records "new type brakes" from Lot 66, so it's possible that the first 2,000 wagons to this drawing, Lots 6, 23, and 54, were built with wooden brake blocks; these may be what we're seeing at St Albans. These wagons have the long brake lever of Drg. 10, the characteristic short lever coming in with the cast iron brake blocks. Incidentally, the Lot List (as reproduced in Midland Wagons Vol. 2) records Lot 23 as being to Drg. 216, as duly noted by Essery, but the Carriage & Wagon Register records that drawing as "Wagon Wheel and Axle Standard inc 216A Wheel Centre & 216B Forged Axle". So I have no hesitation in amending a clerical error in the copy of the Lot List Essery was using and reading Lot 23 as being to Drg. 213. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 19 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said: Appearing below, for @Compound2632 are all the ED wagons captured in the St Albans shed photo. No 164A was a 156 Class 2-4-0 rebuilt (in effect renewed) in 1895 and lived at Wellingborough during the 1890s while No 1049, a Dubs built 700 Class 0-6-0 was at Cricklewood in the 'nineties until 1902 when it went to Leeds. What I find interesting is that while No 1049 is vacuum fitted, it doesn't appear to have any lining. It seems quite a few of the 0-6-0s employed on the London Extension in the 'ninties were unlined. The engine peeping out of the shed is an 800 Class 2-4-0 - I think its number begins with an '8' suggesting it is one from the series 820 to 829 which were all at Bedford at that time. Crimson Rambler Nice two-tone engine shed door as well! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 On 27/06/2021 at 22:34, Dave Hunt said: As far as I am aware, the interiors of doors on virtually all Midland buildings were Denbigh Pottery cream with Indian Red/chocolate framing. Dave Venetian Red I would suggest. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 29, 2021 A response to a previous question and a new one of my own. Below is a picture of the Midland shed at Bath which clearly shows the two tone painting of the doors. Other pictures in my collection also show the S&Ds wooden shed at Bath was painted in a two tone scheme, presumably similar to the Midlands - see Kirtley 2610 below. I've also included a picture of my as yet incomplete model of Bath shed along with its newest arrival, a Kirtley goods which will be finished in grubby black c. early 1920s. There are more details of the shed and loco models over on my Bath thread. My question is in relation to a yard crane I have recently made up for Bath. Its from a really nice little kit by Nbrass and, as the picture shows, isn't exactly the same style as the one at Bath but I'm prepared to live with that - it is 2mm and pretty small after all! At the moment it has just had a flash of red primer and been mounted on a lump of balsa for handling but what colour would it have been in Midland days - albeit faded for my 1920s period. Thanks in advance, Jerry 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 27 minutes ago, queensquare said: My question is in relation to a yard crane I have recently made up for Bath. Its from a really nice little kit by Nbrass and, as the picture shows, isn't exactly the same style as the one at Bath but I'm prepared to live with that - it is 2mm and pretty small after all! At the moment it has just had a flash of red primer and been mounted on a lump of balsa for handling but what colour would it have been in Midland days - albeit faded for my 1920s period. It seems to be the case that rail-mounted cranes belonging to the Locomotive Department and the Engineering Department were painted in oxide of iron - i.e. unvarnished locomotive red - as were related items of rolling stock, including, in the 20th century, the Engineering Department ballast wagons. Here's a restored crane match truck at Butterley so painted but lacking its jib rest. Were Goods Department cranes painted the same way? Whoever restored this Goods Department crane at Quainton Road evidently thought so: [My photos, taken 23 Oct 2018] I'm fairly sure the trolley is a modern reconstruction - noting the machine saw marks on the solebar as well as the condition of the floor boards. According to the information board, this crane was built at Derby works and was at Henlow Camp station (originally just Henlow) on the Bedford & Hitchin line. The RCH Handbook of Railway Stations (1904 edition, David & Charles reprint) does not record a crane there so it must have moved there later, perhaps in response to increased traffic with the establishment of the RAF camp during the Great War. Or it could have moved around from station to station as required until Henlow became its final resting place. If built at Derby and in the Locomotive Works rather than the Carriage & Wagon Works, I suppose it would be natural for it to be painted oxide of iron as that's what they had to hand! However, in the course of a brief discussion of yard cranes on the LNWR Society Facebook group, Mike Williams stated that most LNWR cranes he's seen were made by contractors rather than by Crewe Works. (I'm not sure whether to read into that that he has seen examples made at Crewe.) The LNWR was famous for making as much of its equipment itself rather than buying in, so I'm a little surprised at finding Derby making something that Crewe didn't. Sorry none of that is really at all definitive as an answer to Jerry's question! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 Recalling my visit to Quainton Road, here's a feature I've never seen modelled: I have a feeling I may have posted this before upthread but here's an opportunity for the 2FS and S7 modellers to say, yes, of course all our chairs have that on the underside... 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 Are you sure 'oxide of iron' is the same as 'crimson lake'? I think the former is a cheap replacement for the latter for general use. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: Are you sure 'oxide of iron' is the same as 'crimson lake'? I think the former is a cheap replacement for the latter for general use. I agree, they're not the same thing. I was wrong to say "unvarnished". An 1894 locomotive painting specification given in Midland Style calls for two coats of oxide of iron paint on most parts except the boiler lagging. Once the lagging had been fitted, everything had another coat of lead colour or oxide, then any defects in the surfaces were stopped, filled up, and rubbed down, followed by another two coats of lead colour or oxide. Then sandpapering, followed by two coats of oxide and crimson lake. That last step reads ambiguously - is that one coat of oxide followed by one of crimson lake, or two coats of a mixture? Lead colour is presumably red lead. So I think cranes, match wagons, ballast wagons etc. had some initial preparation, probably less rigorous than that for locomotives, then final coats of oxide of iron, with just the expensive crimson lake omitted. As I understand it, this was also the finish for those unlined non-vac-braked goods engines that were about around the turn of the century. However, the Cowans Sheldon steam cranes were given the full treatment and were lined out. Edited June 29, 2021 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Rambler Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 @Compound2632 wrote earlier "As I understand it, this was also the finish for those unlined non-vac-braked goods engines that were about around the turn of the century." Whilst it is true the majority of the recorded examples of unlined goods engines were steam brake only, there are sufficient piccies of vacuum braked engines finished in the same way (or versions on the theme) to suggest to me it was more complicated. Perhaps its only to be expected - after all we are dealing with the Midland! I am tentatively forming a theory that for the earliest instances at least, it was a geographically inspired solution to overcome (a) local shortage(s) of goods engines. Crimson Rambler 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 7 hours ago, Compound2632 said: here's an opportunity for the 2FS and S7 modellers to say, yes, of course all our chairs have that on the underside... Stephen, as an S7 modeller with persuasions of a Swindon flavour, why might I wish to have MR on the bottom of the rail chairs that I use? 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 Several points: 1. Apologies for stating Indian Red when I meant Venetian Red. 2. Not all the Cowans Sheldon 15 ton cranes were lined out. In fact, I can only find evidence that Nos. 29 and 30 (if I recall the numbers correctly) of the 1899 swan neck Mk. 2 cranes were so treated, which would make sense as they were allocated to London and Manchester, which were well known for elaborate painting of locomotives. The remainder, whilst being 'locomotive red' appear not to have been lined. 3. The top finish on Red locomotives was crimson lake and not a mixture of oxide of iron and crimson lake, the oxide of iron being an undercoat. The late David Tee was of the opinion, with which I agree, that the 'locomotive brown' finish was simply the oxide of iron coat (which shouldn't be confused with red oxide and was a much darker, brown, colour) with varnish applied over it, thus omitting the crimson lake and allowing the locomotives to return to traffic sooner, as Crimson Rambler has suggested. Prior to the locomotive brown livery appearing, some engines were reported as being in unlined crimson lake, which was probably an earlier attempt to speed up the painting process by omitting the lining and final varnish coats. I also agree with Crimson Rambler that these less ornate finishes were quite possibly geographical. Dave 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Western Star said: Stephen, as an S7 modeller with persuasions of a Swindon flavour, why might I wish to have MR on the bottom of the rail chairs that I use? It's a Midland thread, so the assumption is that we're talking about modelling the Midland. What is on the underside of Great Western chairs and have you reproduced it? 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted June 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2021 4 hours ago, Compound2632 said: What is on the underside of Great Western chairs ...... 'Inspected (briefly) by GJC 1933' Dave 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Rambler Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Of course @Compound2632 Midland S7 chairs are company marked:- Crimson Rambler 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2021 10 hours ago, Dave Hunt said: 'Inspected (briefly) by GJC 1933' Bronze bow rams from warships sunk during a sea-battle off Sicily during the First Punic War have been recovered. A Carthaginian one is inscribed "We pray to Baal that this ram will go into an enemy ship and make a big hole". A Roman one has simply "Lucius Quintus the son of Gaius, the quaestor, approved this ram". [M. Beard, SPQR (Profile, 2015) plate 8.] Sorry, that had no particular relevance other than being an early instance of quality control by inspection, prompted by Dave's quip. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2021 Any further thoughts on what colour my yard crane should be or is it a case of leaving it in red oxide with some detail painting and weathering - the workshop is currently in painting mode, Jerry 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: Bronze bow rams from warships sunk during a sea-battle off Sicily during the First Punic War have been recovered. A Carthaginian one is inscribed "We pray to Baal that this ram will go into an enemy ship and make a big hole". A Roman one has simply "Lucius Quintus the son of Gaius, the quaestor, approved this ram". [M. Beard, SPQR (Profile, 2015) plate 8.] Sorry, that had no particular relevance other than being an early instance of quality control by inspection, prompted by Dave's quip. SPQR is still insvribed on the sewer manhole lids in Rome..... Jamie 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Rambler Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Sorry @Compound2632and @jamie92208 are misinformed:- SPQR was a Roman railway Crimson Rambler 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, jamie92208 said: SPQR is still inscribed on the sewer manhole lids in Rome..... Jamie ... and Luton FC on the other side. But you can't go to Rome for the match. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2021 24 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said: ... and Luton FC on the other side. Luton. Brings us back on-topic: Hatboxes being loaded into D299 open wagons at Luton, date unknown. [MRSC Item 60957, embedded link to catalogue thumbnail.] 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 6 hours ago, queensquare said: Any further thoughts on what colour my yard crane should be or is it a case of leaving it in red oxide with some detail painting and weathering - the workshop is currently in painting mode, Jerry I don't know what colour you think Iron Oxide is but I would paint your crane Venetian Red , which is a Haematite based paint. Haematite is of course Iron Oxide but it doesn't seem to be what folks think Iron Oxide paint is these days. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2021 39 minutes ago, meil said: I don't know what colour you think Iron Oxide is but I would paint your crane Venetian Red , which is a Haematite based paint. Haematite is of course Iron Oxide but it doesn't seem to be what folks think Iron Oxide paint is these days. I'm accustomed to thinking of Venetian red as a chocolatey shade, whereas oxide of iron is definitely a dark red. However, if one googles Venetian red, one finds all sorts. I suppose it also depends what colour you think chocolate is... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: I suppose it also depends what colour you think chocolate is... Plain, milk, or white? The areas below the footplate (valences, steps, cylinders, etc.) on CR Westinghouse fitted locos is sometimes described as 'chocolate' but always looks a deep red to my eyes. Jim 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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