Midland Railway Company

[Dave Hunt]

I think that the sort of shade used for what is now generally known as red oxide and which is commonly seen in primers is what a lot of people think of as iron oxide. True iron oxide is, however, a much darker shade and has sometimes been described as purple brown, hence the colour of some goods engines as discussed earlier after the oxide of iron was varnished (the varnish itself having a brownish hue) being called 'locomotive brown' . The Venetian Red that the Midland used on buildings and other structures, however, was not oxide of iron plus varnish but was pigmented paint and just to confuse the issue is sometimes referred to either as a chocolate colour or dark red. The colour shown in Midland Style for Venetian Red is a slightly lighter shade than locomotive brown and could, I suppose, be described as a darkish milk chocolate with a reddish tinge. 

 

When it is remembered that paint colours change over time, especially in soot and sulphur laden atmospheres, I think the bottom line is that any sort of reddish brown colour is as likely to be accurate as any other and unless someone discovers a previously unopened can of Midland Venetian Red paint we will probably never know the truth.

 

So I guess my answer to Queensquare would be paint it in a darkish reddy brown colour.

 

Dave

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

The colour shown in Midland Style for Venetian Red is a slightly lighter shade than locomotive brown and could, I suppose, be described as a darkish milk chocolate with a reddish tinge. 

So is that the same as chocolate orange ?

 

[Dave Hunt]

Not far off actually, Michael, and you could do worse than using that. However, if you used a real chocolate orange the model might get a bit gooey in warm weather. Tasty though....

 

Dave

[queensquare]

8 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I think that the sort of shade used for what is now generally known as red oxide and which is commonly seen in primers is what a lot of people think of as iron oxide. True iron oxide is, however, a much darker shade and has sometimes been described as purple brown, hence the colour of some goods engines as discussed earlier after the oxide of iron was varnished (the varnish itself having a brownish hue) being called 'locomotive brown' . The Venetian Red that the Midland used on buildings and other structures, however, was not oxide of iron plus varnish but was pigmented paint and just to confuse the issue is sometimes referred to either as a chocolate colour or dark red. The colour shown in Midland Style for Venetian Red is a slightly lighter shade than locomotive brown and could, I suppose, be described as a darkish milk chocolate with a reddish tinge. 

 

When it is remembered that paint colours change over time, especially in soot and sulphur laden atmospheres, I think the bottom line is that any sort of reddish brown colour is as likely to be accurate as any other and unless someone discovers a previously unopened can of Midland Venetian Red paint we will probably never know the truth.

 

So I guess my answer to Queensquare would be paint it in a darkish reddy brown colour.

 

Dave

 

Thanks David that's really helpful. I think I will use a similar colour to what I used on the bridge over the Avon at Bath. I made the girders about twenty years ago now and cant remember what paint I used but I'm sure I can mix something similar.

 

Jerry

 

 

[meil]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm accustomed to thinking of Venetian red as a chocolatey shade, whereas oxide of iron is definitely a dark red. However, if one googles Venetian red, one finds all sorts. I suppose it also depends what colour you think chocolate is...

Well quite but I get the impression that a lot of people think that iron oxide looks like light rust.

 

By the way I meant to mention - Indian Red (as used by the GWR) was a Haematite based paint but used a grade of Haematite that has a distinct purple hue. This haematite was imported from India (The Punjab?) and was used by the GWR - hence the name Indian Red. Venetian Red is actually the same stuff but used a normal Haematite ore and so lacks the purple hue of Indian Red.

[Dave Hunt]

47 minutes ago, queensquare said:

 

Thanks David that's really helpful. I think I will use a similar colour to what I used on the bridge over the Avon at Bath. I made the girders about twenty years ago now and cant remember what paint I used but I'm sure I can mix something similar.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

That looks like an acceptable colour to me, Jerry, and is pretty much what I am using on some of the structures I'm making for my MPD layout.

 

Dave

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Not far off actually, Michael, and you could do worse than using that. However, if you used a real chocolate orange the model might get a bit gooey in warm weather. Tasty though....

 

Dave

I've not got into 3D printing but I understand you can use chocolate instead of plastic

[Caley Jim]

The late Charles Undehill (a civil engineer by profession) once told me that, prior to c the 1920's, red lead was the only protective paint available for bridge girders and other steel/iron structures. He described the colour as 'Forth Bridge'. 

 

Jim 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

The late Charles Undehill (a civil engineer by profession) once told me that, prior to c the 1920's, red lead was the only protective paint available for bridge girders and other steel/iron structures. He described the colour as 'Forth Bridge'. 

 

This is why it is my believe that the vast majority of pre-grouping wagons described as "red" - including the Caledonian's - must have been painted using a red-lead based paint, i.e. Forth Bridge colour. I believe it is the case that the protective paint now used on the Forth Bridge is colour matched to red lead. A drawback of lead-based paints, red or white, is that repeated applications make an non-negligible contribution to the load on the structure. I was told by Tony Lister of the LNWR Picnic Saloon Trust that it was the practice to apply a fresh coat of white lead paint to the roofs of LNWR royal train carriages every time they were used for royal train duty, which explains the sag in the roof of the ex-royal train diner at Quainton Road. Both red and white lead are hydrophobic.

[Tricky]

FWIW, I use Tamiya Red Brown.

[Dave Hunt]

Yesterday I visited Tony Wright and gave him my OO gauge Midland models that I made over 40 years ago to sell for the benefit of Cancer Research UK. If anyone is interested there are some pictures of them over on the Wright Writes forum.

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

A very generous act David.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Dave Hunt]

Considering how much they made for CRUK I'm more than happy that they are going to someone who will use them for what they were intended, i.e., run on a layout rather than living in boxes in a cupboard as they have done for decades.

[Tricky]

Great article on Midland wagons in the latest journal by @Compound2632. Also of intriguing interest to me is the state of the building in the background of the cover photo. A preponderance of slipped and missing slates, smashed windows and broken gutters! Looks like I’ll have to include a few dodgy slates in my models! 
But can anyone elaborate on what the building is and why is could be in such a poor state? 
As far as the article itself goes, I shall settle down with a coffee layer and read with interest! 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Tricky said:

Great article on Midland wagons in the latest journal by @Compound2632. Also of intriguing interest to me is the state of the building in the background of the cover photo. A preponderance of slipped and missing slates, smashed windows and broken gutters! Looks like I’ll have to include a few dodgy slates in my models! 
But can anyone elaborate on what the building is and why is could be in such a poor state? 
As far as the article itself goes, I shall settle down with a coffee layer and read with interest! 

 

Andrew Surry, the Journal editor, also commented on the condition of that building - his assumption was that this is a post-Great War photo but it is dated to 1903; the L&Y wagon in the background, with the triangle-in-circle mark, confirms at least a pre-Great War date, since that livery had just been superseded by the large LY initials in 1903. I haven't attempted to work out where it is but I assume it must be at Derby.

 

Did you notice the howler that slipped through in the second sentence of the extended caption on p. 1? It was of course the first thing that leaped out at me. Never proof-read your own work...

 

For those not in receipt of the Midland Railway Society Journal, here's a lower-resolution version of the cover photo. For the extended caption and article on Midland wagons, you'll have to join the Midland Railway Society!*

 

 

[DY2493, this version released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

*Or purchase a single issue; members get three issues a year for less than the non-member price of two issues, so if you want the series of articles on Midland wagons...

Edited July 5, 2021 by Compound2632
Added non-member / member Journal cost comparison.

[Compound2632]

BTW, I'm hoping someone might mention the article on my wagon thread...

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

For those not in receipt of the Midland Railway Society Journal, here's a lower-resolution version of the cover photo. For the extended caption and article on Midland wagons, you'll have to join the Midland Railway Society!*

 

 

[DY2493, this version released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

I'm not a member so maybe it's mentioned in the article, but I thought wagons in that livery normally carried a weight limit in addition the company's initials?  I hope that load's going to be sheeted and roped down properly before it goes anywhere.  It's stacked higher than Steptoe's cart.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm not a member so maybe it's mentioned in the article, but I thought wagons in that livery normally carried a weight limit in addition the company's initials? 

 

In Midland days, the only indication of a wagon's capacity was in the ticket plate, on the solebar to the right of the crown plate of the left-hand axleguard, in this photo. This read TO CARRY at the top and 8 TONS below the space for the ticket. I think I'm right in saying that this remained the case for the first LMS livery, with 8 T or whatever only appearing with the 1936 small-letter livery.

 

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 hope that load's going to be sheeted and roped down properly before it goes anywhere.  It's stacked higher than Steptoe's cart.

 

Yes indeed. As I mention in the extended caption, with method of loading agrees with contemporary descriptions.

[billbedford]

Not Midland but....

 

I have a photo of a MS&L/GCR carriage with a large cast "A" fixed to the solebar. Can anyone tell me what this signified please?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

I have a photo of a MS&L/GCR carriage with a large cast "A" fixed to the solebar. Can anyone tell me what this signified please?

 

That usually indicates the location of the release valve for the Westinghouse brake, so this is presumably a dual-fitted carriage, given that the MS&L was a vacuum line.

 

EDIT. Wrong. See following post.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Compound2632
Well, wouldn't you suppose that A stands for air?

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That usually indicates the location of the release valve for the Westinghouse brake, so this is presumably a dual-fitted carriage, given that the MS&L was a vacuum line.

 

I tell a lie. I have now checked LNWR Liveries: "A white painted cast iron letter A 3" high was fixed near each vacuum cylinder* to indicate the position of the vacuum brake [release cock] ... A similar letter S indicated the position of the steam-heat water trap, while an arrow fixed about 1 ft away from the centre line of the coach denoted the release cock for the Westinghouse brake on dual fitted vehicles." An official drawing is reproduced which shows the A and S to be 3¾" tall, while the arrow, which has a tail barb as well as a head, was 5" long and pointed downwards. The Midland used a star rather than an A from at least the mid-1890s; the LMS continued this on new-built stock. So there clearly wasn't an RCH standard but perhaps the MS&L was wisely following the example of its landlord at Manchester London Road, or perhaps just doggedly differing from Midland practice!

 

*Once on each solebar for 4 and 6-wheelers and radials, twice on bogie carriages, which had a brake cylinder for each bogie. Which prompts the thought: the brake linkage must allow for the rotation of the bogie. How did that work?

Edited July 8, 2021 by Compound2632

[K14]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 Which prompts the thought: the brake linkage must allow for the rotation of the bogie. How did that work?

 

In a word - Slop. Brake gear isn't very precisely engineered otherwise it'd soon seize solid.

[jamie92208]

6 hours ago, K14 said:

 

In a word - Slop. Brake gear isn't very precisely engineered otherwise it'd soon seize solid.

The actual angle of rotation of a bogie is actually quite small sp as K14 has said slop will cope.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

The brakes on the Midland's 'water cart' bogie tenders also worked on the 'slop' principle with the push rods having slightly elongated linkage holes to allow for bogie swing.

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

In addition to providing slop aka 'generous working clearances', the pull rods were usually run as near to the longitudinal centre line of the vehicle as practical since this minimized the degree of bogie turn to be accommodated at the rod ends. In addition the length of the rods compared to their cross-sectional area meant they could flex laterally quite readily, again helping to absorb bogie swing.

 

 

Crimson Rambler