buffalo Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 David, Do you know between what dates GWR painted locomotive headlamp bodies red?... Yes, we do. See post #6. If you still don't believe us, here is a quote from page 60 the section "Locomotives" by Ivor Lewis and Andy McMillan in the current edition of Great Western Way, HMRS, 2009: In 1936 an instruction was issued to paint lamp bodies white but this took many years to complete and trains were noted, even up to ten years later with red bodied lamps or mixed colours. They remained white in BR days. The instruction referred to was a memo from Mr Collett dated 22/12/36. Given this date, I doubt many white lamps were seen in the final days of 1936, so 1937 might be a better estimate for the start of the white lamp era. The Dorchester Castle photograph is 1961, in the British Railways Western Region era. Would there have been red painted headlamps at this time? Also, what about late 1958? Again BR Western Region. Would they have had a mixture of red-bodied and white-bodied headlamps in 1958 ? No, see above. As for the picture caption. I agree it 'could' be incorrect, but it's from a highly-respected source, and the author is very definite in his statement. Just what is this 'highly-respected source', why not provide a link? With any figure caption, if the author did not take the photo and record the details at the time, there is no reason to believe that comments such as those about colours are anything more than assumption or guesswork. Click on this image to enlarge There's nothing in that to suggest the lamp is anything but grubby white. To be fair though, if we didn't have other information, it would be impossible to say with any certainty that it was not red or, indeed, any other colour of similar tonal value because you simply cannot deduce colours from monochrome photos. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Click on this image to enlargeRed or White Lamp.jpg[/quote The variations of tone on the enlarged pic suggest a dirty white lamp to me? Couple of nice preserved shots there, but that's what they are, preserved and looking to show what was as opposed to anything else. I would guess there must be many tens of thousands of colour pics of BR Steam in the 50's and 60's and again I have never seen abpic of a red painted lamp. No one else seems to have either. With B&W pics we could say the Locos were painted red or whatever colour ......... Mind you looking at the pic, we could say the buffers were painted white as well ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 As for the picture caption. I agree it 'could' be incorrect, but it's from a highly-respected source, and the author is very definite in his statement. The examples cited by me were also from "a highly respected source", a well known and respected author and modeller. That doesn't mean they were not subject to the odd abberation, as indeed most of us are. The red-bodied lamps on the preserved locos are, of course, from the preservation era where things are a bit different to normal steam days when trains were observed to be in order by a constant passage of signal boxes and signalmen. Nowadays the signaller cound be miles away and never see a train during their shift. A while ago, I did a rough survey of published Somerset and Dorset photographs. In 1960 most headlamps were black, by 1964 most headlamps were white. I assume this could have been a reflection of the general railway scene of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 ...A while ago, I did a rough survey of published Somerset and Dorset photographs. In 1960 most headlamps were black, by 1964 most headlamps were white. I assume this could have been a reflection of the general railway scene of the time. Perhaps you also noticed that most of the black lamps were of MR/LMS square bodied type whereas most of the white ones were SR round bodied type until the appearance of WR engines, including the 9Fs, which had to use white WR types because of their different lamp irons. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Perhaps you also noticed that most of the black lamps were of MR/LMS square bodied type whereas most of the white ones were SR round bodied type until the appearance of WR engines, including the 9Fs, which had to use white WR types because of their different lamp irons. Nick You've got me there Nick (hangs head in shame - or something). Not the first time I have missed the 'interesting'. I have a photo of a 3F at Derby Shed, next to it is the odd Fowler-esque tender that was attached to another 3F. Another one was a photo I took of a Brit at Preston but missed the Prize Cattle Van next to the tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hi Buffalo / All,Good to see things starting to make sense. Good work. The picture and caption are at http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1767.htm Modern colour photographs are inserted because one presumes that the restoration / preservation groups have done their research, and so they believe it appropriate to fit red-bodied (painted) headlamps. (I have no idea what is/isn't correct, hence my asking the question. I can only argue the 'logicality', not the historical facts. That's why it's great listening to you guys. Thanks.) Incidentally, in case anyone missed it, there's a related discussion at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47150. ...it introduces GWR's Green-coloured locomotive headlights. That's right, not green paint: Green light. Anyway, it'd be great if someone could find an excuse for me fitting one white and one red painted headlamp on the buffer beam of 7016 Chester Castle, when she worked the South Wales Pullman in 1958. These details make a model interesting, and provide a great talking point. ...of course, I can only do this if there's a reasonable historical likelihood, which (apart from the anomaly of Dorchester Castle, in 1961) is appearing increasingly unlikely. Thanks everyone, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2015 Red bodied Great Western lamps (4mm & 7mm) are available from Springside http://www.springsidemodels.com/id17.htm Item DA2 for 4mm I notice that they also do the LMS black version http://www.springsidemodels.com/id16.htm item 15 for 7mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 A while back it was mentioned about red tail lights getting mixed up and been used as head lights. I don't think that this would happen for a couple of reasons, the train tail light was the responsibility of the guard, the shape of the train tail light handle was a different shape to a loco head lamp IIRC, IIRC the loco head lights were also used as tail lights when the loco was running light (sorry) loco, during daylight hours it did not matter to much, but during darkness etc. it had to show a red light. Some lights had a revolving set of filters and others had a set of slides that could be fitted. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2015 A while back it was mentioned about red tail lights getting mixed up and been used as head lights. I don't think that this would happen for a couple of reasons, the train tail light was the responsibility of the guard, the shape of the train tail light handle was a different shape to a loco head lamp IIRC, IIRC the loco head lights were also used as tail lights when the loco was running light (sorry) loco, during daylight hours it did not matter to much, but during darkness etc. it had to show a red light. Some lights had a revolving set of filters and others had a set of slides that could be fitted. OzzyO. And it definitely wouldn't happen on the Western as tail lamp brackets and loco lamp brackets were at a right angle to each other. The only thing which could happen is that a red slide might be left in after an engine has reversed onto its train after arriving light from shed etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 A while back it was mentioned about red tail lights getting mixed up and been used as head lights. I don't think that this would happen for a couple of reasons, the train tail light was the responsibility of the guard, the shape of the train tail light handle was a different shape to a loco head lamp IIRC, IIRC the loco head lights were also used as tail lights when the loco was running light (sorry) loco, during daylight hours it did not matter to much, but during darkness etc. it had to show a red light. Some lights had a revolving set of filters and others had a set of slides that could be fitted. OzzyO. Hi, A normal train running on a running line being operated normally (not single line working) would not in any circumstances show a red light forward. To do so would result in the train being stopped at the next signalbox due to showing an incorrect headlight. The use of an old red painted loco lamp does not apply here and although officially the change to white painted loco lamps on the Western had taken place years before these changes take a very long time to become complete and examples of the previous style lasted long after the official date of change. As to using tail lamps for loco headlamps or vice versa. On Western locos this could not happen as loco lamps had the fixing bracket on the lamp body side to suit the ex GWR type loco lampiron whereas tail lamps had the bracket on the rear to suit a tail lamp iron on a vehicle. To put a tail lamp onto a loco lamp iron would result in the lamp lense pointing sideways rather than to the front - it is for this reason that loco lamps had a 'shade' that could be put in place to chance the light from white to red when a loco needed to show a red light such as when running light or during single line working. One other type of lamp had its bracket on the side of the body - this being a sidelight lamp as used on goods trains. However these lamps had lenses at both front and back so as to show a light both towards the locomotive and to the rear of the train - again these lamps had a red shade used to alter the colour shown towards the rear when running on parralel running lines - in this case to replace a red to rear with a white to rear. The purpose of this was to inform an aproaching driver that he was about to overtake a train on a relief line or loop rather than crash into the back of a train on his own line. As has been pointed out by other posters such as 'Stationmaster' who like me are former railwaymen, a red light shown forward, appart from certain special situations is simply not done. The mention of a different shape handle on a tail lamp is correct. The handle of a tail lamp had a narrower upward projection from the larger loop handle compared to a loco lamp or side lamp. This was to allow the hanging of a tail lamp on the coupling hook without a risk of its jumping off should such a situation arise - most commonly due to a broken tail lamp iron on a vehicle or a damaged fixing bracket on the lamp itself. Hope that of interest. Regards Edit, Sorry Mike to overlap - you muzt have posted just as I was finishing typing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, two very good replies from the Station master and the Weathering man, when I was looking at this photo I noticed the tail lamp bracket above the L/H buffer as we are looking at the photo that is in the "normal" position ie. flat to the rear coach body work. But then two at wast hight in the normal G.W.R. position ie. parallel to the running line. What would these be used for? TFAH OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Those are side lamp brackets. Before 1934, GWR passenger trains carried three lamps at the rear and, like those on goods trains, the side lamps had a red lens to the rear and white to the front. Prior to WW1, side lamps were sometimes fitted in the upper part of duckets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2015 I believe they were also used on the tail end of slip portions, only the last vehicle of the main train carrying a single tail lamp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, two very good replies from the Station master and the Weathering man, when I was looking at this photo I noticed the tail lamp bracket above the L/H buffer as we are looking at the photo that is in the "normal" position ie. flat to the rear coach body work. But then two at wast hight in the normal G.W.R. position ie. parallel to the running line. What would these be used for? Copy of 0 056.jpg TFAH OzzyO. Hi, As Buffalo corectly states they are sidelight lamp brackets - however what is so interesting about the photo is that it shows the end of one of the experimental 'buckeye' fitted GWR coaches. These were part of an experiment by the GWR that unfortunatly did not lead to the general use of the 'buckeye' coupler by the GWR. The buffers of these experimental vehicles were hinged 'dropdown' type rather than the more common 'push in' type more generally used. Even when testing something with a view to standardisation the good old GWR still had to be different !. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I believe they were also used on the tail end of slip portions, only the last vehicle of the main train carrying a single tail lamp. Hi, Not quite - the last vehicle of the main train when conveying a 'slip' coach carried a special tail lamp to remind signalmen that (whilst one or more 'slip' coaches were still attached) that more than one tail lamp would correctly be present ie, the special one on the last vehicle of the main train plus any others carried by individual 'slip' coaches, which again were special lamps with coloured disks roind the lense. Each 'slip' coach had its own individual lamp code within that train. This was a very rare example of a train carrying multiple tail lamps within the rules. Another interesting point is that 'slip' coach working also broke the cardinal rule of absolute block signalling in that once the 'slip' was 'away' from the main train it became a train in its own right and thus constituted a second train within the same section !. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I believe they were also used on the tail end of slip portions, only the last vehicle of the main train carrying a single tail lamp. No, slip coach lamps were quite different. In addition to the usual side lamps, from 1880 slips carried two red disks, or two lights at night. The lamps were arranged as a normal tail lamp with a second lamp above. The upper bracket was used to carry a white headlamp at the front after separation. If there were two slip portions, the rearmost carried a green disk/lamp above the red. Around 1900, the system changed to white and red lights arranged in various combinations according to which vehicle it was of two or more slip portions. In some cases, special double lamps with discs around the lenses were used. More, including an example in GWW and photos in Russell's coaches part two. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, just for completeness here are some more photos of the G.W.R. experiment in using buckeye couplings, these photo are copyright and are only used to show a point. It must have been a bit of a buffer (put two Gs in there) to get the buffers back into the normal position. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Just to show that there are exceptions to any rule, when flicking through Harris, I noticed on p127 a photo of former 12 wheel restaurant car No 9527 now in internal use as 079128. It is sat at the end of a siding outside Swindon stock shed in about 1964 and is carrying two white bodied lamps on the side lamp irons. Unfortunately, the photo angle means I can't tell whether they really are side lamps with a front lens but they do appear to have mounting slots on both sides. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, just for completeness, here's a photo of a slip coach and it's tail lamps. Photo copyright as shown on the photo. I'll let the lads who know about these things explain it, OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Just to show that there are exceptions to any rule, when flicking through Harris, I noticed on p127 a photo of former 12 wheel restaurant car No 9527 now in internal use as 079128. It is sat at the end of a siding outside Swindon stock shed in about 1964 and is carrying two white bodied lamps on the side lamp irons. Unfortunately, the photo angle means I can't tell whether they really are side lamps with a front lens but they do appear to have mounting slots on both sides. Nick Hi Nick, Its a pretty good bet they are actually side lamps. They are the 'standard' BR type housing and only have the 'loop' handle - not having the long narrow extension that I mentioned earlier that was provided on a tail lamp handle. Also if they are mounted on original side light lampirons and were tail lamps the lenses would face sideways in relationship to the coach due to the fixing bracket position on a tail lamp. They could of course just be Western style loco lamps as these would 'sit' correctly on sidelight lamp irons. My bet is that they are side lamps though. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hi Nick, Its a pretty good bet they are actually side lamps. They are the 'standard' BR type housing and only have the 'loop' handle - not having the long narrow extension that I mentioned earlier that was provided on a tail lamp handle. Also if they are mounted on original side light lampirons and were tail lamps the lenses would face sideways in relationship to the coach due to the fixing bracket position on a tail lamp. They could of course just be Western style loco lamps as these would 'sit' correctly on sidelight lamp irons. My bet is that they are side lamps though. Regards Hi again, They could of course be tail lamps if by any chance the coach has had additional tail lamp lampirons fitted for some unknown reason - but why this might have been done is a bit of a mystery. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Returning to the lamps on Castle class locomotives. In addition to the usual headlamp brackets (top, left-centre-right) there are a couple more lamp brackets on the nearside running-boards. I take it these were only used for storage of spare lamps, and that these lamps would face sideways? Thanks for some fascinating posts, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 correct on both points Rick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2015 Then there's the day when you just can't find the right one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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