70021 Morning Star Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hi Everyone, I'm trying to detail a Castle Class locomotive, 7016 Chester Castle. Problem is finding out what material the Cab Floor was made of. Not many photographs include the cab floor. I've found a few of Stars, Kings, and County class locomotives, but none of the Castle class. I suspect it's made of heavy wooden planks with some areas protected with chequerplate. If this is correct, I think the wooden planks would be laid longitudinally, but some locomotives appear to have crossways planking. Anyone no for sure, ideally with a picture? Thanks, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2015 How about this one Rick? https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8074/8346110826_e574803d8b_z.jpg Phil 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Ah, a photograph of 5029 Nunney Castle*, including a tiny bit of wooden floor and some protective metal plating !Many thanks, Phil. This is a big step forwards. Now, if you could just nip back and, this time, tilt your camera down a little more... Many thanks, Rick *No, I'm not really knowledgeable, I just Googled the "5029 PDN" seen on the cab roof, top right of picture. Edited February 9, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 . Interestingly, in oo-scale, a Swan Vestas matchstick is precisely the correct width for those flooring timbers. Of course, I'll have to sand the finished timber floor so it's ultra-thin, otherwise humidity expansion and contraction of the wood will buckle the floor and probably crack the cab sides open; yes, even at this scale! ...guess who's spending the evening cluing matchsticks together? Cheers, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2015 Ah, a photograph of 5029 Nunney Castle*, including a tiny bit of wooden floor and some protective metal plating ! Many thanks, Phil. This is a big step forwards. Now, if you could just nip back and, this time, tilt your camera down a little more... Many thanks, Rick *No, I'm not really knowledgeable, I just Googled the "5029 PDN" seen on the cab roof, top right of picture. Welcome Rick I just found that by googling Castle footplate! Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Hi Phil, I've been doing that for weeks. Castle, cab, floor, footplate, you name it... But, as you may be aware, Google has changed. They now keep a log of your interests, so one search will affect another. You may have noticed, you have to completely shut down the browser, before you can start a new search. Anyway, that was a brilliant 'find' Phil. Work-in-Progress: I've now clued (or glued) the Swans together, and am in the process of taking them down to the required veneer like thickness. By serendipity, I discovered that what I first thought was annoying - namely, some of the bonds breaking - is actually what's needed. If you just glue and sand, you can't see the gaps between the planks. But, if you break the bonds and re-glue, then bits of the wet-and-dry graphite get in with the glue, and clearly delineate the separate boards with a very realistic looking black line. --- If anyone else is doing this, I'd suggest mixing a little black powder paint or weathering powder in the glue from the beginning. Anyway, I'll post some pictures when they're done. ==> Anyone else, I'm still looking for Castle cab pictures, otherwise I'll have to assume the fall-plate is the same as that used on the King class, which it may not be. And I'm thinking that the tender-plate is just plain metal, not chequerplate, as the fall-plate has to slide over it. The corrugations of chequerplate would present a problem there. So, more pikkies, please. Many thanks, Rick Edited February 9, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 http://www.pbase.com/image/151879825 Looks like a decent place to work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Wow, ZiderHead,That's superb! ...and precisely what I needed. Until you sent that link, the best picture I had was of a King class cab floor (plus Phil's confirmation the Castle cab floor is wood and chequerplate): Anyhow, I've finished in my workshop, and now have the wood planking for the floor. Note that I'll only need the front 1/3rd of the piece, as there's chequerplate goes in front of the firebox. Hopefully the chequerplate will arrive tomorrow, and I can finish detailing 7016 Chester Castle's cab; meanwhile, here's some pictures for your amusement: You need to sand, and sand, and sand those matchsticks until they're really thin (same thickness as the etched brass chequerplate). Top view shows the scorching and ingrained coal dust from around the firebox. Of course there's some chequerplate directly in front of the firebox, and so I'll need to add some fine coal dust spillage. (Click on image to enlarge.) And, finally, note that there's not just an accumulation of coal dust between the boards, that coal dust glistens. The process for painting the matchsticks used various weathering washes, the aforementioned re-gluing to highlight the gaps, and a lot of scraping with a blade to get the matt weathered 'bare boards' effect. If anyone's interested, I can add a post giving details of technique and materials. Just one immediate tip, make wider than you need - about four additional matchsticks - as some will split during the sanding process, and you'll need to cut out and discard these. Hmmm, I might even lighten the colour of the boards near the firebox, to show the drying effect of the fire. Easy enough, just a bit more scraping... Rick Edited February 10, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hello Rick, are these any use? Castle fall-plate, King fall-plate, OzzyO. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hey ho, Ozzyo, They most certainly are ! And darned good timing too. The etched brass chequerplating and fishplate have just arrived, along with a proper brass safety-valve bonnet. So I'm needing these picture references. Actually, that first picture looks kind of like 7016 as I try to squeeze in the electro gizzmos: flickering firebox LED and smoke-generator. Thank you, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) . HINGING THE FALL-PLATE Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to hinge the fall-plate? I could just leave a sufficient gap - unhinged (like me ;-) - as I doubt there's much vertical movement; but, that's a bit shoddy, and I'd like it to move. Maybe, I could drill a couple of holes through the cab sides, solder some pins to the fall-plate, prize the cab apart (to get the pins through), and do it that way. Alternatively, I guess I could glue heavy-duty aluminium foil under the plate and onto the footplate (simpler, but would it hold up to wear and tear)? Very thin copper strip hinges would be good, if anyone knows a supplier. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere. ==> Apparently they're called "cigar box hinges" ! Anyone know a cigar smoker who might like to support a good cause ? Thanks, Rick Edited February 10, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hey ho, Ozzyo, They most certainly are ! And darned good timing too. The etched brass chequerplating and fishplate have just arrived, along with a proper brass safety-valve bonnet. So I'm needing these picture references. Actually, that first picture looks kind of like 7016 as I try to squeeze in the electro gizzmos: flickering firebox LED and smoke-generator. Thank you, Rick Hi Rick, Just a word of caution about photos of locos in the preservation era. As far as I can recall from the locos in Swindon museum the fall plates of GWR loco were smooth steel not cheguer plate. Its very possible that locos in preservation service might have had replacement fallplates and footplate areas replaced during restoration with chequer to provide a more non slip surface to meet 'elf and safety' nonsense. I've had a look at a few photos of ex GWR locos in BR service and cannot see any evidence of the use of cheauer plate on these. I'm not 100 per cent sure but as far as ex GWR designs go I think chequer plate was not used for fallplates at least prior to the preservation era. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hi Rick,Having bounced around on the footplate of these (and other) tender engines, I would say the use of chequer plate vs smooth for the curved part of the fall plate is not consistent. It all depends what's to hand. maybe even a 'not until preservation' thing. I guess the old saw about having 'that' photo hits home here.And the rise and fall of the fall plate very much depends on the lumps and bumps of the track - not to mention the curvature (I've had my back foot trapped between the edge of the fall plate and the tender on more than one occasion; that cut out for the brake standard is a very unforgiving piece of engineering ). Smooth plate is the very bu**er to stand on when it's wet - overcooked the use of the slacking pipe, have we? - and you're reaching into the tender for some of the black stuff. Again, if memory serves, the hinges were loops of round bar set into the cab floor - the metal bit. I wouldn't like to spend time on metal footplate; they suck the warmth from you and pay havoc with your joints. Wood is a great carpet; gives you grip, is comforting on the feet, and washes down well. It's also handy for the (usually ex-Swindon... ) driver to draw a white line down the middle of.... CheersJan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Swindon works B.R. days, Looks like checker plate to me, OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Jan,That's most interesting and informative. Hmmm, should I draw a chalk line onto the footplate of 7016 ? :-) So, you appear to be saying that checquerplating type fall-plates were not the norm, but are more a part of today's health-and-safety world, and that the original 1958 era fall-plate would more likely be smooth steel? Can you also explain a little more, please, about the "cut out for the brake standard". I take it you're referring to this bit?In which case, I'm not sure that 7016 Chester Castle had a cut-out in her fall-plate. It's there to accommodate the vertical brake handle on the Colette tender, right? So, as Chester Castle was fitted with Hawksworth tenders, it would serve no purpose.I have this video outtake of Chester Castle (I think from when she was being manufactured) which has no cut-out.This appears to support my thinking that she did not have a 'brake standard' cut-out in her fall-plate. Yes, it might have been added later, if she were mated to a Colette, rather than a Hawksworth, tender; but that seems an unlikely manufacturing sequence. Do you agree, Jan?One other thing. As you had your foot trapped between the fall-plate and the tender's footplate, did you happen to notice what the tender footplate was made of? I'm thinking that it was probably just smooth metal?Many thanks for a tremendous contribution,Rick Edited February 10, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hi Jan, That's most interesting and informative. Hmmm, should I draw a chalk line onto the footplate of 7016 ? :-) So, you appear to be saying that checquerplating type fall-plates were not the norm, but are more a part of today's health-and-safety world, and that the original 1958 era fall-plate would more likely be smooth steel? Can you also explain a little more, please, about the "cut out for the brake standard". I take it you're referring to this bit? Fall Plate Cut Out.jpg In which case, I'm not sure that 7016 Chester Castle had a cut-out in her fall-plate. It's there to accommodate the vertical brake handle on the Colette tender, right? So, as Chester Castle was fitted with Hawksworth tenders, it would serve no purpose. I have this video outtake of Chester Castle (I think from when she was being manufactured) which has no cut-out. Fallplate 7016.jpg This appears to support my thinking that she did not have a 'brake standard' cut-out in her fall-plate. Do you agree, Jan? One other thing. As you had your foot trapped between the fall-plate and the tender's footplate, did you happen to notice what the tender footplate was made of? I'm thinking that it was probably just smooth metal? Many thanks for a tremendous contribution, Rick Hi Rick, Glad to be of assistance. being bounced around on the footplate of any engine (even a GWR one! ) is one of the highlights of my span in this corner of the galaxy (other chocolate bars are available). Mind you, the 4:30 am start? Not so much! Regarding the use of chequer plate, my posited theory regarding the use of same has been consigned to the bin, thanks to Ozzyo's post above (#14). It's a good job there's folk around that can give you the pukka gen, rather than the (well-intentioned) speculative froth that comes from This Idiot. Yes; the cut out for the brake standard is the chomped bit in your photos. Despite being down here in Plymuff, I'm not an authority on what sort of steel boxes sat behind the smoky bit of Swindon's finest; my niche is on the other side of the country, I'm afraid. So if your tender hasn't got a standard, I'd presume it wouldn't have a cut-out (thermal or otherwise). As for whether my foot remembers the style of the crimping chunk, I've asked, and it's a non-starter, I'm afraid. I seem to recall (!!!WARNING: you are now entering a Minefield!!!) that a couple of the Hall's were smooth. But this - again - is speculation. Cheers Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Surely, the cutout on the right of the fall plate is to clear the water scoop standard on a Collett tender? The brake standard is on the left (fireman's side) and is usually set further back on the tender. Hawksworth tenders, of course, also had both brake and scoop standards, but they are both set back far enough to clear the fall plate. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Surely, the cutout on the right of the fall plate is to clear the water scoop standard on a Collett tender? The brake standard is on the left (fireman's side) and is usually set further back on the tender. Hawksworth tenders, of course, also had both brake and scoop standards, but they are both set back far enough to clear the fall plate. Nick Hi Noick You're right. Of course (facepalm). Despite the intervening intermission of 15 or so years since I did this on weekends, you'd think the preceding 13 years of being bounced around might have meant that I'd retain this information in its correct confirmation, but no. It's not 2B. I hereby apologise for the wild goose chase, Rick. I hope I haven't ruffled any feathers. Send me the bill. Cheers Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hello Rick, all, came across this photo of a Castle undergoing overhaul, you can see how the wood is laid out the steel plate to the right goes in the large hole at the front of the cab floor (this was not checker plate), On all of the models of G.W.R. tenders that I've built the tender footplate has been checker plate (I know we should not model a model), two Hawksworth and one Collett tender showing the tender fronts, Just before I put a book away I came across a photo showing the cab and tender of a Castle in 1939 and yes both the fall-plate and tender footplate are checker plate, As you modelling 7016 in about 1962 she could will have the cut out in the fall-plate as she had a Collett tender from 54 - 58, would they have changed the fall-plate or just gas axed a cut-out in it? Carrying on with the tender swaps the first one was done at Canton (tender No. 2409, 10/7/54) the second swap was done at Landore (tender No. 2863, 20/9/56), then back to a Hawksworth at Landore (tender No. 4043, 6/10/58). During this time she went into Swindon works twice. All of this is in the info that I sent to you. OzzyO. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Just before I put a book away I came across a photo showing the cab and tender of a Castle in 1939 and yes both the fall-plate and tender footplate are checker plate, Copy of 4096 tender 1939.jpg Interesting shot there Ozzy, given the date I'm guessing the plated over window and the canopy are for blackout? That must be tempting to model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Love those pictures, Ozzyo. Especially the one that top view which shows how shiny the fall-plate was. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The steel plate (or rather th hole that it covers) in OzzyO's first photo in post 19 provides access to the blowdown valve that was mounted just above the foundation ring at the back of the firebox. Cheers Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hi Jan, Do you mean this? I'd assumed it was just a plate, rather than wood, because it was in front of the heat of the firebox. So, what is a blowdown valve? Thanks, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hello Rick, it's just a piece of plain plate not checker plate as you can see in this photo, the hole in the plate goes towards the tender, OzzyO. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Rick, Yes. That's the hole The blowdown valve was specifically designed to enable shed staff to use live steam pressure to remove sediment and sludge that would settle out on top of the foundation ring. There's more here. Ah.... Toddington Believe me, you wouldn't want to be near one of those things when they go off; and better make sure you have your hands over your ears too! Oh.... the plate was steel because it needed to be reasonably wear-resistant too, probably. This plate was also the resting point for the firehole flap, when it wasn't doing its job 90 degrees from there, and restricting airflow over the top of the fire. Cheers Jan Edited February 10, 2015 by Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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