DavidB-AU Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF announced on February 10 that it had signed the €200m contract to supply Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd with 75 new coaches for use on Anglo-Scottish sleeper services from April 2018, plus associated spares and technical support. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/caf-signs-caledonian-sleeper-coach-contract.html 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 This must be the first new LHCS for the UK since the Mk 4s, and they were what? 25 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 75 seems a lot. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Isn't the existing portions four to six SLE/SLEPs with a RLO and BUO. Each train has two portions and there are two trains in each direction. Plus there are a couple of coaches for the FW section and a set in Inverness for maintenance. This gives 8*9+2 which is 74 coaches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 75 seems a lot. Ed Is 75 not the exact same number of coaches that are currently used, i.e four rakes of 16 + a number of stand-ins for maintenance / failures? JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 75 seems a lot. Ed Actually what seems a lot is the price. Nearly £2m per coach for LHCS? the article doesn't explain what 'technical support' is but if maintenance then I suppose OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) No jobs for anyone in the UK then I am sure a company like Bombardier could build these coaches in the UK albeit England. Edited February 12, 2015 by Xerces Fobe2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This must be the first new LHCS for the UK since the Mk 4s, and they were what? 25 years ago. The first to go into service anyway (thinking of your namesakes...) Actually what seems a lot is the price. Nearly £2m per coach for LHCS? the article doesn't explain what 'technical support' is but if maintenance then I suppose OK. There will be a helpline to an overseas call centre manned between 11am and 4pm daily where "John", who is a highly trained expert in these coaches already will be able to answer any query related to turning them off then on again. Seriously - I think it will mean that it includes the maintenance contract. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 No jobs for anyone in the UK then I am sure a company like Bombardier could build these coaches in the UK albeit England.They should have put in the best bid then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Actually what seems a lot is the price. Nearly £2m per coach for LHCS? the article doesn't explain what 'technical support' is but if maintenance then I suppose OK. I don't think the technical support includes actual maintenance or maintenance facilities. It's only spares and technical support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Seriously - I think it will mean that it includes the maintenance contract. I don't believe it does Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Actually what seems a lot is the price. Nearly £2m per coach for LHCS? the article doesn't explain what 'technical support' is but if maintenance then I suppose OK. Sleeper cars and catering cars are expensive to build because there is a lot of extra "kit". And 75 is a fairly small number to amortise the design costs over. Frankly, I don't see that the economics of sleeper operation stack up (fast daytime trains to Glasgow/Edinburgh, cheap flights to Aberdeen and Inverness) and it would be much better for the Scottish Govt to spend this sort of money on other projects north of the border which would benefit infinitely greater numbers of rail passengers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2015 Possibly the decline of the euro against the pound made them a lot cheaper ....... timing the buying of euros right might save 5% overall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sleeper cars and catering cars are expensive to build because there is a lot of extra "kit". And 75 is a fairly small number to amortise the design costs over. Frankly, I don't see that the economics of sleeper operation stack up (fast daytime trains to Glasgow/Edinburgh, cheap flights to Aberdeen and Inverness) and it would be much better for the Scottish Govt to spend this sort of money on other projects north of the border which would benefit infinitely greater numbers of rail passengers. Totally agree about the economics of the operation, but given that the service is reputed to be used by MPs then sensible economics is not a factor! I understand that problem with amortizing design costs over a small fleet, and the strange kit that these vehicles have, but on an EMU for example the propulsion equipment is a significant proportion of the total cost. I guess CAF will not be making a loss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 CAF will be making a decent profit from this contract. With the Scottish government footing 40% of the purchase cost (€80) and heavily subsidising the sleeper service operation until 2029, I agree with Joseph that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Over on the Rapido thread, Jason is very critical of the British-built Renaissance night sleepers (what was to be Eurostar Night trains) which have serious corrosion problems and leak at the joint between roof and sides. But, as Mike (Stationmaster) pointed out the bodywork and running gear was built in Spain with final assembly at Met Camm, Washwood Heath. I'm not 100% sure but I think that it was at the factory now owned by CAF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 CAF will be making a decent profit from this contract. With the Scottish government footing 40% of the purchase cost (€80) and heavily subsidising the sleeper service operation until 2029, I agree with Joseph that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. And if by 2029 they come to their senses and stop subsidising these services, the coaches will only have a service life of 12 years! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Do we know how much the sleeper service is being subsidised by under the new contract? Given that plenty of other rural rail travel is subsidised I don't see why the sleeper shouldn't be. The sleeper has much better point to point reach than fast services to Glasgow/Edinburgh or various airports. It is much more valuable for business and leisure... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Tallitim said in post #9: 'They should have put in the best bid then' They possibly did, but maybe it wasn't the cheapest - as we all know that this country's railways are run by bean counters. {sic} 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 This must be the first new LHCS for the UK since the Mk 4s, and they were what? 25 years ago. No, the ENS stock came along in the 1990s although there was of course an international element to that company. Actually what seems a lot is the price. Nearly £2m per coach for LHCS? the article doesn't explain what 'technical support' is but if maintenance then I suppose OK. As it appears to include a maintenance contract it strikes me as quite a good price - a fully equipped sleeper with ensuite facilities etc, albeit to meet a variety of international requirements, cost around £1 million 20 years ago so this price doesn't sound too bad if maintenance and spares are included. Sleepers to meet current UK safety regulatons are pretty complex vehicles - some of the ENS vehicles contained over 1 mile of wiring and with ensuite facilities there is an awful lot of plumbing involved as well. Plus no doubt a very hefty electrical load which still leaves me wondering about a Class 73 having enough poke on West Highland gradients with the 'hotel' load. It would be interesting to know the design parameters for aircon in relation to the assumed outside temperature range - that can be a big problem on electrical load. Over on the Rapido thread, Jason is very critical of the British-built Renaissance night sleepers (what was to be Eurostar Night trains) which have serious corrosion problems and leak at the joint between roof and sides. But, as Mike (Stationmaster) pointed out the bodywork and running gear was built in Spain with final assembly at Met Camm, Washwood Heath. I'm not 100% sure but I think that it was at the factory now owned by CAF. That very thought passed through my mind (I'm not sure if the running gear was built in Spain but the bodies definitely were and they were delivered to Birmingham as complete painted shells with MetCamm doing the interior fit). This time it appears they will be 100% Spanish built so no new unskilled jobs to come in Britain alas (I say unskilled because a lot of the interior work on the ENS stock was done by people MetCamm recruited off the street with no previous relevant experience). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Do we know how much the sleeper service is being subsidised by under the new contract? Given that plenty of other rural rail travel is subsidised I don't see why the sleeper shouldn't be. The sleeper has much better point to point reach than fast services to Glasgow/Edinburgh or various airports. It is much more valuable for business and leisure... Is it really so valuable for either business or leisure? It transports very few people (you only get 12 passengers in a 1st class sleeper against 48+ in a 1st class seated coach). I think that far more economic gain could be generated using that subsidy elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Tallitim said in post #9: 'They should have put in the best bid then' They possibly did, but maybe it wasn't the cheapest - as we all know that this country's railways are run by bean counters. {sic} This country being Scotland? The bid contained a 'significant quality element' according to various sources Edited February 12, 2015 by Talltim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Its a pity the two sleepers (Caledonian and Night Riviera) aren't linked in some way. There's got to be an economy of scale of replacing stock for both at the same time. Edited February 12, 2015 by Talltim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This 'Country' being the UK! As far as I know Cross 'Country' Trains Anglo Scottish and Anglo Welsh services (or cross border if you prefer?) do not suddenly become superficially patriotic when they operate in each part of the UK. I can reference patriotism without deference to anyone - I'm Yorkshire first and British second :-) Riviera stock is just being facelifted for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Is it really so valuable for either business or leisure? It transports very few people (you only get 12 passengers in a 1st class sleeper against 48+ in a 1st class seated coach). I think that far more economic gain could be generated using that subsidy elsewhere. Put it this way if demand is any measure then yes it is - they are frequently packed! Thereafter the economic subsidy question is how much is being paid and how much would passengers continue to pay whilst maintaining the same level of demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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