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CAF to build new LHCS for Caledonian Sleeper


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No images have been released AFAIK, but reading about the CAF built sleepers, it says there will be 5 different types of vehicle.

The seated vehicles will use reclining (cradle) sleeper chairs and Pod-bed seats, increasing the levels of service to 4 (or 5 if you include single berths).

 

Serco used this image of possible designs for the Pod bed seats.....

 

accommodation-sleeping-pods.jpg

 

 

Here is a pdf about the new franchise and trains.

A new Serco Caledonian livery is depicted in this document, although I think it has been modified now, with a new stag logo.

 

CS%20logo%20small_tcm3-46333.jpg

 

 

 

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Those seats seem almost to give you the worst possible solution. Even when the person in front of you does not have the seat reclined, you still have very little space. Looks even more claustrophobic than those high-backed wing seats on FGW.

 

Just find myself wondering if it would not work better to have the seats as on an underground train? Or even on the diagonal (chevron in parking parlance)? Those look pretty chunky so presumably only 2+1 and about 42 per carriage. You could probably achieve the same with chevron but give everyone access to the passage without disturbing their sleeping neighbour. And give everyone a privacy partition like business class on an aircraft.

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The Transport Scotland document I linked to, contains this design for the Pod flat beds.....

 

 

article-0-1E4545EF00000578-162_638x445.j

 

Each Pod Flatbed will have the following features:

  • fully 100% flatbed reclining seat;

  • privacy screen;

  • individual reading light;

  • USB power supply for mobile phones, tablets etc;

  • 3 pin power socket;

  • lockable storage facility for small luggage, laptops, purses etc;

  • ability to check-in larger items of luggage to be stored securely throughout the journey;

  • blanket, duvet and pillow;

  • sleep kit; and

  • wi-fi 

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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I just hope the welding they do on these is of a better standard than the ones I have seen on defence items built in Spain. They seem to have little clue as to how to get a good weld .. and welds regarded as "defects" in the UK are passed OK.

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I just hope the welding they do on these is of a better standard than the ones I have seen on defence items built in Spain. They seem to have little clue as to how to get a good weld .. and welds regarded as "defects" in the UK are passed OK.

From what others have said it sounds as if poor/defective original welds on the ENS stock might be responsible for some of their problems in Canada.  they are almost certainly operating in a climatic situation which goes beyond the original spec and although I think the vehicle tested in Vienna was taken below -20C it was obviously static so no wind chill factor involved.

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Just a few points re the Cornish Night Riviera. During July and august it runs to full capacity most days. We are short of stock to cope with possible bookings and demand is growing. It is a big disappointment to all that there is no tag on order for new stock for us. My personal thoughts are because of IEP and franchise date uncertainty and lack of continuity would mean no joined up plan. There is life in the structure of our SLEPs so I guess they who are think its better to gut them and have a new interior to more modern spec. for now until some point when...... .

A 57 can easily power a longer sleeper train and again more locos would be nice. If only for planned maintenance such as the current bogie refurbishment programme - its the replacement DRS locos that have caused most problems since last summer.

As for value, its not just the price but the practical ease of using a sleeper service that also counts. On a weeks holiday you gain 2 full days extra !

Finally, lots would like to see all services run on a Saturday night too and a new service brought back up to Bristol and on to Scotland up the west side.

I would have concerns about using the new 73 though....... .

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Getting defective vehicles, or those requiring maintenance, to finish at Inverness sometimes requires additional shunting at Edinburgh which can cause delay.

It is very rare for additional shunting to take place at Edinburgh, in order to get a defective vehicle to Inverness

Usually the consists are swapped at Wembley, a defective vehicle will then be at the rear of the Fort William / Aberdeen / Inverness (as it leaves Euston)

The main issue comes if it is an ETH related fault, this then requires the faulty vehicle to be swapped at Edinburgh from the rear as it arrives, to the rear as it departs

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Serco might be willing to run a cross-country night service. But who would pay the subsidy? I can't see the Westminster Govt (of whichever party/ies) being as generous as the Scottish Govt on this.

This was the whole point of privitisation, be innovative

The Scotland - Plymouth sleeper would serve a very limited Scottish market, so can't see TS even offering 50% of the capital cost

 

Equally, the experimental service as part of the Caledonian Sleeper franchise would not be included in the next franchise

Serco would then have to decide whether to include it in one of their other franchises, sell it to the next franchisee, or end the service

Can of worms...

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lots would like to see all services run on a Saturday night too and a new service brought back up to Bristol and on to Scotland up the west side.

I would have concerns about using the new 73 though....... .

Who wants to see the return of Sleepers on Saturday nights?

 

When I worked on the sleepers in the 1990s they were almost a waste of time

The journey time didn't help, plus delays on top

I even remember working on an Inverness service which had just three passengers southbound

As a result we bumped them up to First Class, using just the first two sleeper coaches, out of nine!

They couldn't believe they were the only passengers

However, it was no surprise as the train departed at about 19:00 and didn't arrive into Euston until about 10:00

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But even if you have to be physically present at the meeting, does it really need to start that early that the first train from Edinburgh would not get you there?

 

The first train from Edinburgh gets in to Kings Cross at 09:40.  No use for a 9am meeting, tight enough to be uncomfortable for a 10am meeting in the City or the West End.  Remember that the meeting has to happen at a time when the other attendees can also make it.  The way people's diaries are these days (the sort of people who get travel approved to attend meetings, anyway) you're unlikely to get six or seven other people to reschedule their entire day just to accommodate one or two who have an unaccountable predeliction for getting up at 5am.  (And you can forget any chance of making that egregious yuppie invention, the "breakfast meeting".  I'm barely able to think coherently at breakfast time, let alone contribute to a meeting.  A colleague did invite me to a breakfast meeting once.  I did attend the meeting.  All our subsequent meetings took place during the normal working day.)

 

Should the Scottish Govt be facilitating/paying for business to take place in London rather than Edinburgh or Glasgow?

 

I think the Scottish Government would probably point out that the service runs both ways, ie it helps people get up to Scotland to do a full day's business there (and then back down south for their next working day) as well as the other way round.

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I can see the Scotrail MKIII sleepers finding themselves heading south via Eastleigh or Wolverton and getting very heavy modifications before resurfacing.

 

75 low mileage (compared to daytime stock) coaches on the best bogie there is, there must be life in them yet.

Not all of the 75 are Mk3s, I think that number will include 20+ Mk2 seating/lounge cars. 

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Who wants to see the return of Sleepers on Saturday nights?

 

When I worked on the sleepers in the 1990s they were almost a waste of time

The journey time didn't help, plus delays on top

 

I even remember working on an Inverness service which had just three passengers southbound

As a result we bumped them up to First Class, using just the first two sleeper coaches, out of nine!

They couldn't believe they were the only passengers

However, it was no surprise as the train departed at about 19:00 and didn't arrive into Euston until about 10:00

People from the west would like to travel up on Fri night to do the various events held on saturdays..... . plenty of people have asked me but all I can do is put in reports.... . Edited by Cornish Triang Paul
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People from the west would like to travel up on Fri night to do the various events held on saturdays..... . plenty of people have asked me but all I can do is put in reports.... .

er, the point being raised was sleepers on Saturday nights, arriving into destination on Sunday morning

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There used to be a sleeper service from Glasgow to Plymouth as well. Now if we lived in a country that had joined up thinking they could have split the great western sleepers from the great western franchise and made a sleeper franchise.

The sleeper can be very busy especially Friday and Sunday night's sometimes it's fully booked.

Or they could run an 'Overnight' franchise to run the unprofitable late night services that used to make it possible for people to travel around the country without loosing a day at work.

 

As that would mostly borrow the normal daytime stock you would need to join it up with the other franchises, you could call it British Rail. ;)

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This was the whole point of privitisation, be innovative

The Scotland - Plymouth sleeper would serve a very limited Scottish market, so can't see TS even offering 50% of the capital cost

 

Equally, the experimental service as part of the Caledonian Sleeper franchise would not be included in the next franchise

Serco would then have to decide whether to include it in one of their other franchises, sell it to the next franchisee, or end the service

Can of worms...

 

How much "innovation" have we seen as a result of privatisation? A few "open-access" operators such as Hull Trains (a success) and Wrexham & Shropshire (a failure). Most open access applications have been refused.

 

Apart from an erroneous belief that BR was "deeply inefficient" and the privatised railway would need less public subsidy, the main reason for privatisation seems to have been a desire for politicians not to be embarassed by the media every time there was an accident on the railway.

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The Transport Scotland document I linked to, contains this design for the Pod flat beds.....

 

 

article-0-1E4545EF00000578-162_638x445.j

 

Each Pod Flatbed will have the following features:

  • fully 100% flatbed reclining seat;

  • privacy screen;

  • individual reading light;

  • USB power supply for mobile phones, tablets etc;

  • 3 pin power socket;

  • lockable storage facility for small luggage, laptops, purses etc;

  • ability to check-in larger items of luggage to be stored securely throughout the journey;

  • blanket, duvet and pillow;

  • sleep kit; and

  • wi-fi 

 

 

Presumably those are singles either side of an aisle. That gives 18 per carriage (or perhaps 20 if only a door/vestibule at one end of a 23m vehicle). So I can't see that it is a particularly good option by comparison with two-berth compartments.

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, the main reason for privatisation seems to have been a desire for politicians not to be embarassed by the media every time there was an accident on the railway.

Sorry to veer a little OT but oddly, or very perceptively, that echoes something Roy Hattersley said at a railway industry dinner in 1995 or thereabouts, his words being that most MPs would be glad to see it privatised as it would mean a huge reduction in the size of their mailbags because there would no longer be complaints about BR and trains running late or not having enough seats.   I sometimes wonder what today's MPs would make of that comment?

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Apologies if I've missed something but where are these "pod" vehicles going in the train? What are they replacing? They look like an improvement over the seated coach but a downgrade on the current berth. I'm hoping that it's not going to only be an improvement for first class (en suite) but worse for standard class non-seating. If they lack the same capacity as the current seated coach will there need to be an additional one? The Fort William service stops a lot on the West Highland line for non-overnight passengers.

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How much "innovation" have we seen as a result of privatisation? A few "open-access" operators such as Hull Trains (a success) and Wrexham & Shropshire (a failure). Most open access applications have been refused.

 

Apart from an erroneous belief that BR was "deeply inefficient" and the privatised railway would need less public subsidy, the main reason for privatisation seems to have been a desire for politicians not to be embarassed by the media every time there was an accident on the railway.

 

Innovation: risk-sharing partnerships and long term secure relationships for certain routes' rolling stock, most notably Virgin/ ex-Virgin through their contracts with Bombardier and Alstom, and SWT with Siemens, which have increased efficiency and brought trains of levels of complexity and performance into the market, in numbers that could never have been afforded/ would never have been sanctioned under Whitehall control.

 

There are a huge amount of fairly revolutionary new behaviours in certain parts of the supply chain that are not conspicuous to the travelling public or those at arms' length from the industry.  I don't really get the idea that accidents spare politicians' embarrassment, because of the amount of interference and micro-management by DfT in the franchises, and the fact that Network Rail is in the public sector effectively neutralises that from an infrastructure point of view.

 

It was innovative to rebuild the Borders line to Tweedbank, which could not have happened had devolution of Scotland not taken place, with the seceding of its own power to invest.  It's also been innovative to establish Network Rail's regulatory asset base (RAB) against which it can raise funds for ongoing improvement and investment (simplistically).

Edited by 'CHARD
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I for one would make use of a Scotland - West Country sleeper service.  Currently I have to get a Bendyleano to EUS and then across to PAD to get the FGW sleeper.  Being able to go directly from Crewe later in the evening would be SO much more attractive, not least in being cheaper.  The Scottish sleeper from Crewe at around midnight is very handy. :-)  It would be nice to be able to do it the other way too.

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Apologies if I've missed something but where are these "pod" vehicles going in the train? What are they replacing? They look like an improvement over the seated coach but a downgrade on the current berth. I'm hoping that it's not going to only be an improvement for first class (en suite) but worse for standard class non-seating. If they lack the same capacity as the current seated coach will there need to be an additional one? The Fort William service stops a lot on the West Highland line for non-overnight passengers.

 

The requirement is for several levels of berth/ overnight accommodation.  The pods don't replace the berths, they are a step up from plain vanilla seated vehicles, and TS have retained the requirement for basic seats to cover the morning passengers north of Edinburgh.

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......The pods don't replace the berths, they are a step up from plain vanilla seated vehicles, and TS have retained the requirement for basic seats to cover the morning passengers north of Edinburgh.

 

Are you sure, because the TS blurb and the news surrounding the order for the new sleepers, clearly have no mention of "plain vanilla" seats in the new trains?

 

They say there are 4 levels of service - "Cradle seats", "Pod bed seats", "Berths" and "En-suit Berths".

 

I get the impression that the concept of First Class is being done away with, to be replaced by Business class en-suite accommodation.

 

Cradle seats are recliner seats akin to the old style business class airline seats.

There are 5 types of passenger vehicle in the new trains, possibly equating to the 4 levels of service, plus the new Club Car.

There is no mention of ordinary, non-sleeping capable, passenger seats anywhere.

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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....The Fort William service stops a lot on the West Highland line for non-overnight passengers.

 

.......retained the requirement for basic seats to cover the morning passengers north of Edinburgh.

 

Should the sleeper service, which is now a completely different franchise, different type of rail service and is being continued (only because of political intervention) to serve a specific purpose, be able to be used by non-sleeper service passengers?

 

From the post I made above, it appears that "ordinary" seating may be eliminated from the new sleeper trains when they are delivered.

 

 

.

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