'CHARD Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Post #133 I think that post needs to be read in conjunction with earlier Post #130, also from MJKerr, which says 'similar to existing Mk3,' but meaning similar in use or designation. No-one could build more Mk3s to the original design, due to prevailing Standards, so CAF will be building a new design with some similar characteristics to other 23m vehicles. Edited February 16, 2015 by 'CHARD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm getting totally confused now (perhaps I should re-read the thread). It'll be a change at Edinburgh now? That's much worse. Seated passengers currently have to change at Edinburgh The proposal is that passengers in the cradle seats and Lie Flats will still be required to change at Edinburgh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) I think that post needs to be read in conjunction with earlier Post #130, also from Mike Can someone please advise me where it says Mike... This is about the tenth time now that Mike has been quoted from one of my posts My name is NOT Mike, it never has been Edited February 16, 2015 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Can someone please advise me where it says Mike... This is about the tenth time now that Mike has been quoted from one of my posts My name is NOT Mike, it never has been Apologies Mavis, I've corrected my earlier post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) er, see post #130, the number of coaches per consist is remaining the same at 8, total train length departing Euston and Scotland (Carstairs and Edinburgh) remains at 16 So the two Fort William sleepers are included in that total? (i.e they are within one of the 'sets' of eight vehicles) Edited February 16, 2015 by The Stationmaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 So the two Fort William sleepers are included in that total? (i.e they are within one of the 'sets' of eight vehicles) I believe that the highland sleeper is made up of an eight coach portion (currently BUO, RLO and 6 SLE/P/D) for Inverness, a six coach portion for Aberdeen (BUO, RLO and 4 SLE/P/D) and two SLE/P/D for Fort Bill. The Fort Bill portion has a BUO and RUO attached at Edinburgh so seated passengers have to change. Sometimes the Fort Bill portion steals a sleeper from the Aberdeen portion depending on the loading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 Alas Ron I doubt if Newton's laws of Physics can be changed. Advances in electrical equipment will no doubt allow reductions in loads for some purposes but even efficient water heaters will still consume electricity. One thing that would be possible (assuming the authorities would allow it) is to use a shower system they have on private jets. This recycles the water through a powerful UV filter to sterilise it. Cuts down massively on the amount of water you need to carry, and the amount of heating as you are (after the initial start up) heating warm water rather than cold. I am surprised that four different body she'll types are being proposed. I'd have thought that three would be sufficient, with the guards compartment in the service/lounge/buffet car. Unless the window layout for the cradle seats and pod beds is so different that they really couldn't use the same body shell. Can't wait to see the diagrams for them. I seriously doubt that Bachby will make models of them. Hope they will be fairly easy to etch or 3D print. Were Serco quite approachable mjkerr? Do you have a contact or are they happy to share stuff with the man on the street (or Internet forum)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) So the two Fort William sleepers are included in that total? (i.e they are within one of the 'sets' of eight vehicles) That is correct, there are eight consists, which are typically : BUO-RLO-/-SLED-SLE-SLE(P)-SLE-/-SLEP-SLE Each of these consists is made up three sets, the split between the SLE and SLEP varies depending on the split between the Aberdeen and Fort William sleeper (see below) In total there are 24 sets in use each night The only time they are split into sets is at Inverness The four Glasgow / Edinburgh consists are straight forward Two each of the above join/split The four Inverness / Aberdeen is slightly more complicated The Aberdeen portion includes the two sleepers for the Fort William service (increases to three sleepers on Friday northbound and Sunday southbound) The seated passengers normally travel in the Inverness portion Edited February 17, 2015 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Can someone please advise me where it says Mike... This is about the tenth time now that Mike has been quoted from one of my posts My name is NOT Mike, it never has been I think I can understand, remove the curl from the bottom of the j and it would read mikeer. However I've never read it like that, I've always assumed it was initials and a surname of Kerr, but I might equally be make assumptions too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I am surprised that four different body she'll types are being proposed. It **still** doesn't say four body shell types, it's four vehicle types... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 Seated passengers currently have to change at Edinburgh The proposal is that passengers in the cradle seats and Lie Flats will still be required to change at Edinburgh Ah, right, got it, phew! Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 It **still** doesn't say four body shell types, it's four vehicle types... I refer my learned friend to post #130 by mjkerr Update from Serco : There are going to be four different coach designs The first is very similar to a Mark 3B BFO / Mark 3 TGS This will include the Train Manager area and Lie Flat beds There will be one such coach per consist The second is similar to a Mark 3 seating coach The will include the cradle seats There will be one such coach per consist The third is similar to the Mark 3 TCC This will include the staff area, Club Car, and storage area There will be one such coach per consist The fourth is similar to the Mark 3A SLEP This will allow the three remaining different accomodation types There will be five such coaches per consist I read that to say there are four different body shell designs. I could well be proved wrong. I would hope CAF have the design nouse to use just two designs of body shell, but the internals required may make this impossible and require four. The nightstar stock did it with three which would match the current stock. The FGW sleepers use four different designs, and what is described above is an almost exact replica of that. We won't KNOW until they release some drawings and we can count windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 We won't KNOW until they release some drawings... I quite agree, which is why it's annoying that some folk seem insistent on it being 4 totally different bodies, and that being somehow "wasteful"! I would say the FGW ones use 3 bodies (the RFM and TSO ought to be virtually the same, if not identical structurally) - and the inclusion of one of them (the BFO) is effectively a happy accident of history. So looking at the info Mike has shared: "Like a BFO/TGS" - those would both be different by virtue of a wider doorway - (the BFO also have an odd large window spacing, but that's not something you'd have to copy into a bespoke new design) the additional door panel is now sealed up virtually everywhere I believe, so you could build a modern TGS equivalent by using a standard TSO shell with a sealed window (or two) each side. "Like a TCC" - TCC are day coach shell conversions with a couple of sealed windows for the buffet area. "Like a TSO" - so that's 3 coaches that **may** not need to be structurally any different beyond where you cut a couple of window holes. "Like a SLEP" - and, if you have a day coach frame already, why not just build it again but with less window holes? Potentially* that's one coach body, with just some (minor in 3/4s of them) variations in where you do/don't cut the window holes. That you can't convert a Mk3 SLEP to a TSO because the coach structure is different is a red herring - It seems quite likely to me that if somebody had asked BREL to build a sleeper shell with the capability of later conversion to a TSO, they would have designed it that way! (*And one of the potential questions is what they are building it from - the above is really assuming a steel frame and skin with holes cut in it like a Mk3 has - lots of modern coaches use aluminium, which is made of lots of little bits welded together, so variety in window arrangements may not be such an issue, or use ribbon glazing, where again you have a standard frame but the panel work inside defines which bits are see-through and which are not in a particular coach.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I bet they'll be 'camels' - i.e. a horse designed by committee. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I am surprised that four different body she'll types are being proposed. I'd have thought that three would be sufficient, with the guards compartment in the service/lounge/buffet car. Unless the window layout for the cradle seats and pod beds is so different that they really couldn't use the same body shell. Can't wait to see the diagrams for them. I seriously doubt that Bachby will make models of them. Hope they will be fairly easy to etch or 3D print. Were Serco quite approachable mjkerr? Do you have a contact or are they happy to share stuff with the man on the street (or Internet forum)? When you look at what they have completed for Intercity Ireland, there are four different coach designs for 67 vehicles This isn't much different to the Caledonian Sleeper order Caledonian Sleeper have ordered five different internal coach layouts, based on four different structural designs (if that makes it clearer) As an example, if you see a Mark 3A FO and TSO from a distance you cannot tell them apart until you see the interior Initially Serco did not respond, but recently they have been very informative and quick to respond There are currently two items on embargo, but these relate to the actual public service launch on 01 April 2015 Another is due to follow, which I suspect is the launch of the livery Equally, Abellio ScotRail have recently been very informative On the other hand Virgin Trains East Coast have gone quiet... Edited February 17, 2015 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So looking at the info Mike has shared He's backistan! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 LOL! I bet Martyn was thinking, 'I must remember not to write Mike, I must remember not to type Mike...' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yup - sorry.....er.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I bet they'll be 'camels' - i.e. a horse designed by committee. Wouldn't make for a very comfortable ride... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) LOL! I bet Martyn was thinking, 'I must remember not to write Mike, I must remember not to type Mike...' I know they actually say "Mine, Mine", but I always hear it as "Mike, Mike" and now, so will you Edited February 17, 2015 by Talltim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I know they actually say "Mine, Mine", but I always hear it as "Mike, Mike" and now, so will you I always have Odd, even when using the same username, this is the only forum where I am refered to as Mike Even at work some people call me Mike, then wonder why I ignored them! Perhaps I should change my name from Mr Magorium to Mr Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 I bet they'll be 'camels' - i.e. a horse designed by committee. My greatest worry (from a modelling perspective) is that the coaches won't be 'pretty'. I'm not quite sure myself what I mean by this, but I find the Mk3 coach to be more or less perfect aesthetically. Something about the proportions and window spacing, and the streamlined under frame. I'm sure many will disagree with me but I find the Mk3 sleeper to be the best looking coach around, at least until First get their hands on one and paint it in a horrible livery. It even looks good in *shudder* BR blue and grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The Mark 3A sleepers looked good in the NatEx version (almost monochromatic)From what I have seen of the Caledonian Sleeper livery it looks like an improvement over the current liveryMost liveries have to work around an almost identical proportion of windows to body panels The sleeper coaches are almost like a locomotive with majority body panels Edited February 17, 2015 by mjkerr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 The Mark 3A sleepers looked good in the NatEx version (almost monochromatic) From what I have seen of the Caledonian Sleeper livery it looks like an improvement over the current livery Most liveries have to work around an almost identical proportion of windows to body panels The sleeper coaches are almost like a locomotive with majority body panels Does anyone know if Serco are going to vinyl up a rake of sleepers, or even just a few coaches for the launch? And as an aside how is the franchise takeover handled? Usually they switch in the middle of the night when all the stock is tucked up in its depot. Will they switch operator in the middle of the day, or will you go to sleep on a First train and wake up on a Serco one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Does anyone know if Serco are going to vinyl up a rake of sleepers, or even just a few coaches for the launch? And as an aside how is the franchise takeover handled? Usually they switch in the middle of the night when all the stock is tucked up in its depot. Will they switch operator in the middle of the day, or will you go to sleep on a First train and wake up on a Serco one? First ScotRail need to remove at least 80% of the logos from the rolling stock by Tuesday 24 March Caledonian Sleeper have no plans, at this time, to relivery any of the coaches In the interim period basic logos will be applied However, some of the station improvements will be applied in the new livery; Network Rail have already given approval for these The first of these should appear at Euston and Edinburgh in time for Tuesday 31 March (I suspect on the night of Saturday 28 March) GBRf should have completed two Class 92 locos in Caledonian Sleeper in time for Tuesday 31 March One will be used northbound on the Inverness The other will be used southbound on the Edinburgh The franchise commences at the end of operations which commenced on Monday 30 March In effect this is midday on Tuesday 31 March Caledonian Sleeper Services operate from Tuesday 31 March Edited February 17, 2015 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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