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Thanet Parkway and HS1 "Extension"


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Kent CC have the funding for this and intend to build it by 2019. Built on farmland the new station will be an unmanned with 2 platform and a 300 space car park. It's situated close to the Junction of the A299 and A256 a couple of miles from the centre of Ramsgate. This puts the station between Ramsgate and Minster Junction.

 

There is more info here

Consultants technical docs - http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/16622/Thanet-Parkway-Station-Technical-Note.pdf

 

KCC Information - http://www.kent.gov.uk/roads-and-travel/travelling-around-kent/thanet-parkway-railway-station

 

I've read through the paperwork and went to the consultation meeting at Ramsgate Station. And for the benefit of any conspiracy theorists around this proposal clearly pre-dates the issues with Manston.

 

There's a deal of stress on the idea of Parkway to London(Stratford International) in about an hour.  Quite why Stratford and not St Pancras is something I never got a clear answer to.

To achieve this sort of timing the line between Ramsgate and Ashford will need to be re-signalled and upgraded to get line speeds above their present Edwardian levels. If I've understood things correctly this will be done in phases starting in 2019.

 

There's a widely recognised issue with parking at Ramsgate. Sandwich would also benefit ands there's a proposal to run a shuttle bus from Birchington.   

 

All  trains will stop at the Parkway.

 

KCC stressed they will protect services to existing stations.

 

 

The headlines points being made:-

 

Improve the perception of East Kent

Reduce journey times

Provide Park-and-Ride facilities

Support Housing and Employment developments

Reduce congestion/parking issues

 

Stu

 

Edited to correct links

Edited by lapford34102
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  • 4 weeks later...

It looks as if the Gov will announce that HS1 is to be "extended" to Ramsgate. Apart from the already known improvements to the signalling and trackwork it will involve a major re-alignment of track at Grove Ferry and according to an NR source installing 25Kv between Ashford and Ramsgate.

 

Links here to local news though little detail so far

 

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/kent-to-benefit-from-more-33358/

 

http://www.canterburytimes.co.uk/12-million-railway-improvement-cut-10-minutes/story-26167639-detail/story.html

 

Quite what the reaction would be to a catenary appearing along the Stour Valley will be time will tell. Unsurprisingly it's already become a election football but the least said about that the better.

 

Hopefully more detail later.

 

Stu

Edited by lapford34102
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  • 5 years later...

Update on this

 

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2020/08/04/government-commits-12-million-for-thanet-parkway-station/

 

Loved this comment

Cllr Barry Lewis said of the funding announcement: “I have spoken to hundreds of people about the problems in Thanet and not one person has said the problem with Thanet is that we only have seven train stations.

 

Plus be interested to know where our MP got this from

  That can now change with a headline journey time of around 1 hour to London Stratford International.

 

Non stop to Stratford perhaps.

 

Stu

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  • 4 weeks later...
13 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

the journey times from East Kent to London have long held back its regeneration.

A new station a bit closer to St Pancras won't make a major difference, Apart from improving the parking situation around Ramsgate station it'll benefit travellers from Sandwich, possibly Deal and those in places like Birchington though a fair amount has been made about it's "unmanned halt" status. Also the current setup doesn't seem to have put off people moving down in the slightest.

What's missing from the scheme  are further improvements to the track between Thanet and Ashford, such as Grove Ferry , though that would be be very expensive.

We have a row brewing over the possible re-opening of Manston and this project might well get dragged into the mix.

Cheers

Stu

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On 05/08/2020 at 09:53, lapford34102 said:

That can now change with a headline journey time of around 1 hour to London Stratford International.

Why would you go from Thanet to Stratford?  Perhaps the answer lies within the next comment.  

 

30 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Let's hope it definitely goes ahead - the journey times from East Kent to London have long held back its regeneration.

It never seemed to hold back the many day trippers and hop-pickers who once required the SR to run many additional services but the journey time never seemed to matter.  Today it may be that high speed rail journeys would encourage the residents of east London to once more take buckets and spades to the Kent coast rather than to Southend; the need to return would produce the need for travel from Thanet to Stratford (see above)  

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, lapford34102 said:

A new station a bit closer to St Pancras won't make a major difference, Apart from improving the parking situation around Ramsgate station it'll benefit travellers from Sandwich, possibly Deal and those in places like Birchington though a fair amount has been made about it's "unmanned halt" status. Also the current setup doesn't seem to have put off people moving down in the slightest.

What's missing from the scheme  are further improvements to the track between Thanet and Ashford, such as Grove Ferry , though that would be be very expensive.

We have a row brewing over the possible re-opening of Manston and this project might well get dragged into the mix.

Cheers

Stu

 

I disagree. The journey times to London have long held a brake on the expansion of East Kent. It is only the promise of cheaper housing (and a better lifestyle, compared to, say, the Medway) that have attracted as many as it has so far. The appalling state of the roads, before you hit the A2 (M) ( and even then, it leaves a lot to be desired) plus the paucity of fast trains, has deterred many and caused many businesses (that depended on local custom,or tourist patronage) to fail. It has been ridiculous that locations in Kent as far from London as say, Peterborough, have had twice the journey time by rail. If demand increases as a result of this (as it did at Ashford), then route improvements will follow.

 

Manston has been a recurring sore for 25 years - UKIP even wanted to re-open the airport, then found it had neither the powers nor the money to do that. I do not believe that the Thanet Parkway scheme is dependent on Manston regeneration, although that would help.  The lack of parking at Minster, Ramsgate, Dumpton Park, Sandwich and Deal (even Broadstairs), plus the journey times, have always deterred users. There is simply nowhere else for it to go. The spasmodic development of other settlements away from the few big towns, has exacerbated the problem. I know, because I was one for many years in the 70's and early 80's, and then at intervening periods up to a few years ago.

 

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21 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Why would you go from Thanet to Stratford?  Perhaps the answer lies within the next comment.  

 

It never seemed to hold back the many day trippers and hop-pickers who once required the SR to run many additional services but the journey time never seemed to matter.  Today it may be that high speed rail journeys would encourage the residents of east London to once more take buckets and spades to the Kent coast rather than to Southend; the need to return would produce the need for travel from Thanet to Stratford (see above)  

 

 

 

 

 

Hardly the case for opening a new station. I think you are dwelling on the 1950's. East Kent has changed not inconsiderably since then.

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23 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Why would you go from Thanet to Stratford?

The DLR connection

23 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

once more take buckets and spades to the Kent coast

Recent events have rather revitalised that traffic. Local media showing pics of crowded trains heading for Thanet, the beaches at Margate and Broadstairs being convenient for the stations, Ramsgate less so. In Broadstairs on certain days watching the day trippers troop down to the beach became something of a spectator sport.

 

Mike, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on a number of things but just to respond to a few of your points from a personal perspective.

Better lifestyle certainly but much of the housing development is at the upper end of the market, cheaper or comparable with markets closer to the Capital but not "cheap" . There's a "blinged up" 60's 4 bed detached in the next road at £600,000.

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

The appalling state of the roads, before you hit the A2 (M)

Thanet Way is  motorway standard dual carriageway from theM2 to St Nicholas-at Wade and dual carriageway to Ramsgate and Sandwich. Margate link isn't as good but hits urban area sooner.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

It has been ridiculous that locations in Kent as far from London as say, Peterborough, have had twice the journey time by rail. If demand increases as a result of this (as it did at Ashford), then route improvements will follow.

Not sure that's a fair comparison. Peterborough is a stop on a much longer route and the fastest service is non-stop as far as I can see. Whilst non stop St Pancras to Ramsgate might well be comparable it wouldn't be much use.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

I do not believe that the Thanet Parkway scheme is dependent on Manston regeneration,

Neither do I but I don't underestimate the ability of local pressure groups to muddy the waters.

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Dumpton Park,

Not exactly a problem given the (probably intentional but only my opinion) dismal service South Eastern see to provide. When the Covenant expires next year it'll likely be for the axe.

Cheers

Stu

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On 31/08/2020 at 23:45, lapford34102 said:

 

 

Mike, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on a number of things but just to respond to a few of your points from a personal perspective.

Better lifestyle certainly but much of the housing development is at the upper end of the market, cheaper or comparable with markets closer to the Capital but not "cheap" . There's a "blinged up" 60's 4 bed detached in the next road at £600,000.

Thanet Way is  motorway standard dual carriageway from theM2 to St Nicholas-at Wade and dual carriageway to Ramsgate and Sandwich. Margate link isn't as good but hits urban area sooner.

 

Not sure that's a fair comparison. Peterborough is a stop on a much longer route and the fastest service is non-stop as far as I can see. Whilst non stop St Pancras to Ramsgate might well be comparable it wouldn't be much use.

 

Neither do I but I don't underestimate the ability of local pressure groups to muddy the waters.

Not exactly a problem given the (probably intentional but only my opinion) dismal service South Eastern see to provide. When the Covenant expires next year it'll likely be for the axe.

Cheers

Stu

 

Well maybe we will, but just to point out a few things:

 

House prices - Thanet still has the lowest average house price in the whole of Kent (c.£270k in mid-2019, outside the Medway, so probably a bit lower now). The majority of houses sold were mid-terrace. So whilst there are some developments, and individual properties, demanding some inflated prices, the average person will not be paying these.

 

Road links - if you take St Nicholas at Wade as the "border", even the M2 is just two lane until it gets past the Medway, and is a slow crawl (pre-Covid) from around Sittingbourne. Beyond St Nick, you have the joint morning exodus heading for Canterbury, Ashford, Maidstone and the Medway as well as for London. Whilst the link to Ramsgate was improved over the last 8 or 10 years, it still gets bogged down, being only two lane, from the roundabout near Manston, in the morning peak. Having had to drive to London (Stratford) from Ramsgate on a few occasions in the past several years, in the peak, I have not done it in under three hours (I needed the car on these occasions for onward journeys). From Peteborough, a similar car journey would take around two hours. There is ample demand for a  better rail link.

 

Peterborough comparison - I deliberately used this as I am familiar with the territory. The catchment for Peterborough is roughly 220,000 people (depending on where you draw the line, there being Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Melton Mowbray, Grantham and Huntingdon as alternatives). The catchment for Thanet and Dover is 260,000. It is the most densely populated, fastest growing, non-metropolitan council region in England. The commuter services for Peterborough were built around the acceleration of East Coast services, it is true, but the combined catchment of Peterborough to Leeds did not exceed that of Kent, and probably still does not. Give also that the London - Thanet HS services are largely built upon a circular route operation - Ashford/Dover/Thanet/Medway - there is no argument about the "end of the line" applicable here.

 

The attached link, albeit a few years out of date now, may help explain the thinking.

 

https://moderngov.dover.gov.uk/documents/s23366/East%20Kent%20Growth%20Framework%20-%20Appendix%201.pdf

 

Essentially, East Kent has suffered for over 150 years, from the paucity of investment originally and lack of amelioration since, from poor rail links to the capital. Despite some fairly recent lows, it has continued to grow, It deserves better and any piece of the jigsaw that can help that is welcome by me.

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2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

any piece of the jigsaw that can help that is welcome by me.

Well you just may have it.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/new-railway-station-approved-233102/

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

essentially, East Kent has suffered for over 150 years, from the paucity of investment originally and lack of amelioration since,.....

No argument on that.

I'll have a look at the rest of it tomorrow, well later today!

Cheers

Stu

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18 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

House prices

Hi,

There's a 2020 breakdown here https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/kent-house-prices-new-heatmap-4410818

It goes into a little more detail and prices would appear to have dropped. My concern would be if Thanet started to emulate the Whitstable experience where you could be heading to a situation that the local earners start being priced out the market. Maybe unlikely but there's pressure on social housing and Thanet saw the smallest 5yr percentage growth (KCC) We simply need more economic housing for the locals before anything else. This in stark contrast to Faversham where there's development everywhere though who the target market is I don't know.

18 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Road links

I'm old enough to remember, and drive on, the old Thanet Way, 3 lane bits and all. From my point of view anything was likely to be an improvement :-) They are going to spend some money on it, primarily to correct the faults when it was built such as the washboard bit by the Chestfield Tunnel. I think the problem is the the moment the Channel Tunnel was built the M2 was always going to play second fiddle to the M20 and that's where the money's gone. You've just had part changed to a Smart (?) Motorway and the (in)famous Junction 10a work in progress. If they ever get round to building a Lower Thames Crossing and God knows we need it then the purse string might loosen for the M2.

19 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Give also that the London - Thanet HS services are largely built upon a circular route operation - Ashford/Dover/Thanet/Medway

That's possible simply due to a quirk of history, it was never in the original plan AFAIK and seems to have introduced to placate certain populations. Going from Birchington to St. P via Strood and Ebbsfleet is hardly "High Speed" and I'm shouldn't be surprised SEastern charge a premium for it. I'll happily argue the Peterborough comparison till the cows come home :-) The line has to dogleg across Kent where on part of the route the linespeed has barely changed since the 60's though the C'bury-Ashford section has seen a modest increase. Sort out places like the Grove Ferry "chicane" and put in 25kv -  maximising what the 395's can do - to Ramsgate and we could get somewhere.  The question that might well be asked is "do we need any of this". The Commuter Economy may well be changing. (Warning, a bit political) The Gov are going on about getting back to work when I think they mean getting back to work in the cities etc. They are probably under pressure from Transport and  service industries that rely on commuters to get back to the pre-covid state. I'm not sure that's going to happen to the extent they want it to or whether it's even desirable. Easy for me to sit here and say that but society's activities evolve and maybe we've crammed 10 years worth of evolution in a matter of months.

Had a read of the Framework but probably not the place to comment....

Cheers

Stu

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On 03/09/2020 at 18:08, lapford34102 said:

Hi,

There's a 2020 breakdown here https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/kent-house-prices-new-heatmap-4410818

It goes into a little more detail and prices would appear to have dropped. My concern would be if Thanet started to emulate the Whitstable experience where you could be heading to a situation that the local earners start being priced out the market. Maybe unlikely but there's pressure on social housing and Thanet saw the smallest 5yr percentage growth (KCC) We simply need more economic housing for the locals before anything else. This in stark contrast to Faversham where there's development everywhere though who the target market is I don't know.

I'm old enough to remember, and drive on, the old Thanet Way, 3 lane bits and all. From my point of view anything was likely to be an improvement :-) They are going to spend some money on it, primarily to correct the faults when it was built such as the washboard bit by the Chestfield Tunnel. I think the problem is the the moment the Channel Tunnel was built the M2 was always going to play second fiddle to the M20 and that's where the money's gone. You've just had part changed to a Smart (?) Motorway and the (in)famous Junction 10a work in progress. If they ever get round to building a Lower Thames Crossing and God knows we need it then the purse string might loosen for the M2.

That's possible simply due to a quirk of history, it was never in the original plan AFAIK and seems to have introduced to placate certain populations. Going from Birchington to St. P via Strood and Ebbsfleet is hardly "High Speed" and I'm shouldn't be surprised SEastern charge a premium for it. I'll happily argue the Peterborough comparison till the cows come home :-) The line has to dogleg across Kent where on part of the route the linespeed has barely changed since the 60's though the C'bury-Ashford section has seen a modest increase. Sort out places like the Grove Ferry "chicane" and put in 25kv -  maximising what the 395's can do - to Ramsgate and we could get somewhere.  The question that might well be asked is "do we need any of this". The Commuter Economy may well be changing. (Warning, a bit political) The Gov are going on about getting back to work when I think they mean getting back to work in the cities etc. They are probably under pressure from Transport and  service industries that rely on commuters to get back to the pre-covid state. I'm not sure that's going to happen to the extent they want it to or whether it's even desirable. Easy for me to sit here and say that but society's activities evolve and maybe we've crammed 10 years worth of evolution in a matter of months.

Had a read of the Framework but probably not the place to comment....

Cheers

Stu

 

Sorry for the delay in replying, but our internet has been spasmodic lately.

 

Housing - I agree, but the stats don't lie. Most sales are for terraced housing, not the "Exec" homes often headlined. I had to sell my mother-in-law's, two bedroomed, linked-detached, 1980's house, with a huge garden and garage, in a reasonably posh part of Ramsgate a few years ago. It did not make anywhere near what the agents thought it would. I do not think price-inflation is a major issue in Thanet for a while yet. Faversham has always had a different market, for various reasons, but mainly due to its perception (along with unaffordable Canterbury) as an outlier receptacle of civilisation between the Medway and Thanet.

 

Roads - the Lower Thames Crossing has been authorised, in principle, so we shall see if that reflects further into Kent. My belief is that the only big spend we shall see in my lifetime, will be on further post-brexit works around Dover.

 

Commuting - all the evidence points to people wanting to move further out of London, post-Covid, as they can work from home, but still need to travel to London a few times a week. But all the other evidence points to all the people who cannot work from home, and do need to commute into London, once they feel it is safe enough to do so. They are the majority in terms of job numbers - hospitality, medical, social care, emergency services, utilities, transport workers, construction, maintenance, and so on. I would guess those that can afford to remain where they are, will stay, but the average office worker stay at home worker, may well move to a cheaper location, if their travelling expenses are just as affordable, due to travelling less. But as you say, if private rentals increase in South London and North Kent, due to the more prosperous moving out of town to those locations, then where do these people go? Essex is already getting expensive, and the rest around London already are costing too much. Mid and East Kent seem to be the obvious solutions.

 

Whether or not 25Kv is needed, there needs to be a major upgrade of Kent's railway services planned for the near future. Opening Thanet Parkway will be the first indication (East of Ashford anyway) of that suppressed demand.

 

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25kV would only offer a worthwhile benefit if the line speed (and regularly attainable speed) could be increased above 100mph. I don't know the route through Kent at all, but the LSWR route happily supports 100mph running on DC, and it's not especially difficult to get enough juice into the con rail to allow that. Whether the formation, station stop spacing and signalling could readily allow 110-125mph been Ashford and Ramsgate (or Margate, I think that's where the trains actually run to?) is another matter, but unless it can there's no need for 25kV.

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13 hours ago, Zomboid said:

25kV would only offer a worthwhile benefit if the line speed (and regularly attainable speed) could be increased above 100mph. I don't know the route through Kent at all, but the LSWR route happily supports 100mph running on DC, and it's not especially difficult to get enough juice into the con rail to allow that. Whether the formation, station stop spacing and signalling could readily allow 110-125mph been Ashford and Ramsgate (or Margate, I think that's where the trains actually run to?) is another matter, but unless it can there's no need for 25kV.

 

100mph would be nice. The trains east of Ashford towards Canterbury/Ramsgate rarely make it above 75mph now!

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33 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

100mph would be nice. The trains east of Ashford towards Canterbury/Ramsgate rarely make it above 75mph now!

14 hours ago, Zomboid said:

25kV ...........Whether the formation, station stop spacing and signalling could readily allow 110-125mph been Ashford and Ramsgate (or Margate, I think that's where the trains actually run to?) is another matter, but unless it can there's no need for 25kV.

Hi, Had a chat with a modeller friend who also drives 395's for a living. They were obviously designed for 225kph and are very power hungry. On the 750v where the power supply is limited there's is a marginal penalty on a 6 car, much more evident when running as 12 cars. There's a 100mph section between Ashford and Westenhanger, the lighter 375's can reach 100 in both directions, the 395's only Ashford to W'hanger "downhill". He describe the acceleration of a 12 car on 750v as slow when compared to other units he's driven.

There's now 80mph between Ashford and Chilham, 60 round Chilham and then 70. But there's also a 45 and 60 restriction for foot crossings because of sight lines between Chartham and C'bury. No horns, upsets the natives! The other side you've got the 40 restriction for Grove Ferry. From a few varied sources heard the same story that the line here is ok for 60 but the treadle's for the level crossing are sited for 40. There are by the way 8 level crossings between Ramsgate and Ashford.

22 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

It did not make anywhere near what the agents thought it would.

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22 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

It did not make anywhere near what the agents thought it would.

Does it ever? Three doors up have just sold, know them well enough to find out how they did. Pre Covid we would regularly get flyers from estate agents all with a similar message - Thinking of selling? We have out of area buyers waiting.

22 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

.............will be on further post-brexit works around Dover.

You might well be right listening to the news. I wonder if they'll dust off the Manston lorry park plans.

22 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Commuting .............

As train services increased today they interviewed some passengers. Main point was plenty of seats. Understand that large numbers need to commute but home working might well improve the journey of those that have to travel. Someone from the CBI said possibly 30% of commuters might stay home working. And yes, your right that could well put pressure on housing in certain areas. Curious at your Faversham comment. Railway town morphed into a dormitory town?

 

And finally a comment from 395 driver. When you get to Stratford in the morning the last 3 coaches empty - they're nearest the exit!

Stu

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27 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

He describe the acceleration of a 12 car on 750v as slow when compared to other units he's driven

As you'd expect without variable gearing, you can have high acceleration or high top speed with a given power output. 750 does limit things a bit, but if attainable speeds are nearer 60 than 100 due to level crossings and curvature, then 25kV would be a total waste. Fix that so trains can consistently run at 80+ first.

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