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Cab windows- upgrade via Extreme Etchings


Derekstuart

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I have purchased several sets of etched window frames for our dear old Brush 4's from EE.

 

I believe they were designed primarily for the Bachmann 47, although I have purchased them for the Lima version. However, the etchings are too small for the side window apertures, although the cab front etches are the right size.

 

Whether Lima or Bachmann have the right size, I cannot say (I suspect the Lima one is right in this respect although I don't have a Bachmann one to hand to comment on it).

BUT the side window and front window from EE ARE DIFFERENT. Looking at several threads on this sub forum, it appears that the height of the cab side and cab front are the same- therefore regardless of Lima or Bachmann, it appears that one of the EE etches is wrong. I suspect it is the side one, but not sure.

 

Could any experts comment on this please? I am very surprised that EE is wrong, but I cannot see any alternative.

Thanks

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  • RMweb Gold

The windows are etched to specifically fit the openings in Vitrains/Bachmann/Heljan only.

The fact that a seperate etching has to be made for each manufacturer shows the differences and confirms that the windows are not interchangeable.

For the Lima Brush 4, file down the Bachmann version until a specific set becomes availableAlso, the etched windowframe makes a difference.

 

https://shawplan.wordpress.com/laserglaze-product-list-20th-february-2012/

 

Mike.

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Mike

 

Thanks. I am talking about the frames, not the actual 'glass'.

 

The etched front frames are pretty close to the Lima and Heljan, but not Bachmann (and I have no idea about Vi- but I suspect they are the same as Lima). As a matter of note it seems the etched front frames are made to take Heljan- not Bachmann 'glass'.

 

But the point I was making was that on the prototype, the front windows and the side windows are the same height. If you take Shawplan (EE) etches they are different heights- I haven't got them with me, but I seem to recall that the side etches are about 20% shorter in height than the front, which cannot be right- unless I have missed something (on each model the proportions are correct relative to each other).

 

I think we have spoken before about Shawplan/EE stuff on another thread, so you will know that I am very enthusiastic about the Extreme range, so I am not in any way knocking the stuff and in fact I hope that I have overlooked something rather than the etch being at fault as they are pretty bl006y good.

 

On a slightly different subject, as there is no etches for the engine room windows, I wonder if it is better to leave the original Lima interpretation there or file it flush- on the basis that the prototype frame is barely noticeable anyway AND if that top chap Brian ever adds them to the list, it's going to be easier to attach them to a flush side later. Opinions???

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Evening Derek,

 

                        I have completed several 47's now, using EE etches where necessary ( predominently on Lima versions - although I'm in the process of doing a Bachmann spoon ).

 

Here's a couple of views of 47 708 - Lima body on a Vi chassis:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/60731-lima-47-on-vitrains-chassis/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/60729-lima-47-on-vitrains-chassis/

 

With the Lima version, I have had to completely rebuild the front window apperture out of plasticard, in order to get a correct fit for the EE frames. The problem is that the Lima body is a constant curve along the front cab windows, whereas on the Prototype the frames themselves sit in a flat recess.

 

The same can be said for the Cabside frames - they do sit in a small recess, however, although the cabside frames and the main front cab frames line up at the bottom, the cabside frames are actually shorter in height - as can be seen on my model of 708, I didn't get it absolutely correct ( lesson learned in following a photo of the real thing ). I now know different having been a volunteer on the preservation of 47 712 and being able to get at extremely close quarters with the real thing!

 

So in essence, the EE frames are spot on and you will have to splice a piece of plasticard on the Lima cabsides in order for the EE frames to fit correctly.

 

To fit the EE frames with lasergalze, use the Heljan version as this is not far out but will need a bit of filing to get it to fit correctly.

 

As for the engine room windows, I didn't bother with altering them but wish I had as I think that the Lima ones are a tad to big - I just kind of hope that noone will notice too much when running on my layout..................

 

 

Hope this helps

 

cheers

 

Andy

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Andy,

many thanks for the info and the photo link- that's some impressive work.

 

When you say a constant curve, do you mean that the bottom of the windows follow the curve of the 'bonnet' rather than being straight, or are you referring to looking down from the roof towards the track? In the case of the latter, the 2 window panes meet in a very subtle peak in the middle, don't they? Which is correct. (I am asking not stating!). The Heljan example looks like it is just completely straight from side to side. (I don't know about the Bachmann one as it's not here at the moment to look).

 

I have to say that I thought I knew the 47 well, but it's only when you get down to this level of detail that you realise it's more intensive than you think.

 

Certainly your work has proven that the Lima 47 can be made to look good. Have you seen the Bachmann 47 that was re-worked by a chap on here- Jon020?

 

Again, my thanks for the guidance and links. I am really happy that EE got it right and I got it wrong as I really like their stuff.

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Hi Derek,

              Yes, I've seen Jon's work and it is impressive, something we can all aspire to.

 

I tried to upload a photo ofr you last night re a close up of the front of 47 712, but I couldn't get the thing right ( my fault due to my IT ineptitude! )

 

The front of a 47 curves laterally along the front, matching the curvature of the bonnet, however, due to this curve, the frames themselves are set back in a recess. So looking at the loco head on, the sides of the cabfront frames touch the outside of the curvature but due to the frames themselves being flat - there is then a flat cutout for want of a better description - along the length of the cabframe, to allow it to sit flat on the loco.

 

This photo is from Brain Daniels' site, which is very good for detail shots and highlights what I'm trying to say:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5863046357/in/set-72157627029323184

 

You can see the recess that I'm referring to at the top of the cabfront frame and also the top of the cabside frame. As you say, it's only when you really start looking that you realise that what you always thought was right, isn't!

The Lima body has a constant curve along the full width of the front, making it necessary to have to remodel with plasticard in order to get the flat 'recess'. Not easy, but well worth the effort in the end.

 

There are no really flat or straight surfaces on a 47 and they have some very subtle curves or flat surfaces that only become apparent when studying one close up.

 

If you send me a PM on here with your e-mail address, I'll send you an e-mail back with all the detail shots I have of 47 712 if you like.

 

hope this helps

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

 

Thanks for the further info. That "eyebrow" to use Jon's description (I think it was him anyway) IS moulded on the Lima body though- at least at the top.

 

No matter how many photos I look at I think the only option is to go any look at one close up- funny enough, there's a short siding (also known as a 'preserved railway' by some there) local to me, which has a 47 there so I will go and have a proper look.

 

I have had a look again at the Bachmann model (which maybe is technically brilliant, but just doesn't capture the look as the Lima one does, IMO, despite these errors) and it has side windows only very slightly shorter than the front windows. Even lining up the EE front frames along the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the side window, the difference would surely equate to a good 6 inches difference on the prototype. I will of course defer to your more detailed knowledge of a small difference but surely it cannot be 4-6 inches difference; even a poor photo would show that up?

EDIT: I've just seen that the link above leads to dozens more photos, which I am looking through now. A link most definitely bookmarked!

 

EDIT2: I see how photos from different angles give a different interpretation to relative window sizes. I did incidentally note that the Lima side windows are too long and too close to the door/ handrail recess- which the EE cures.

 

EDIT3: Now I really don't know what's what....  the edges of the EE etch aren't actually straight but are curved. Are the front windows on the prototype actually a proper rectangle or are they some obscure, slightly curved 'arc' like shape that isn't so obvious in the photo?

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Hi Derek,

 

In response to your observation about the edges of the EE etch not being straight, you are correct and again the EE etch is right.

 

Looking at the 47 nose on, the frames have a slightly curved edge at both the top and the bottom. I assume that when the Brush 4's were designed, the cab windows were given a slight curve to give a more aesthetically pleasing appearance, so that they followed the curve along the top of the bonnet and also the curve of the cantrail. The 47 front cab windows are a real weird shape, the only straight edges being the vertical sides of the front frames.......

 

 

cheers

 

Andy

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Thanks again Andy.

 

So Lima NEARLY got the windows right, inasmuch as they introduced the curve, but they made the curve too severe. Is that about right?

 

Before I proceed further I will have to go and see one for myself just to understand fully.

 

Do you mind me asking a couple more questions? I appreciate you have a life outside of this discussion and can't spend all day on it... ;)

 

What size metal rod did you use for the hand rails, and are they the same for the cab sides, front lower and front upper? From the photos I've looked at I would say 10thou/.25mm for the cab front and 15thou/.45mm for the cab sides.

 

On the subject of boilers, it appears that ALL 47's had the large riveted plate, as per Lima, regardless of which boiler type they had. Did the same also apply to the other boiler exhaust options- ie the port modelled by Lima, did ALL 47's have a blanking plate if the "standard" boiler was used, or did they only cut the hole there on 47's so equipped?

 

Around the roof fans, some 47's appear to have a pipe (water? hydraulic?) from one end of the fan area to the others. Presumably some sort of return to the header tank or an air bleed pipe???

 

Again, I apologise for so many questions. It is really important to me to get this right- or at least as close as I can get it.
Thanks

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  • 1 year later...

Hi Derek

quote

"On the subject of boilers, it appears that ALL 47's had the large riveted plate, as per Lima, regardless of which boiler type they had. Did the same also apply to the other boiler exhaust options- ie the port modelled by Lima, did ALL 47's have a blanking plate if the "standard" boiler was used, or did they only cut the hole there on 47's so equipped?"

 

Yes all Lima 47's (incorrectly) had the same boiler roof arrangement, but in reality there were 3 types of boiler/ports fitted to as built prototype 47 locos.

 

Spanner MK3 - a round boiler port - plated over when boilers were removed or isolated  -  for instance  47 546 /47 617 

Clayton MK11 - square port  - open or plated over etc   - 47 717 / 47 636 + others

Stone Vapor   - square port/ grill  - open or plated over etc  - 47 525 / 47 714  + others   (AFAIK this is the type that Lima represented on all their 47 bodyshells)

 

For more info see :  www.class47.co.uk

 

Cheers

Ken

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Guest B Exam

Apologies for the late reply over the window conumdrum, only just stumbled upon it!

 

Regarding cab front windows, there are two different cab fronts depending on who built the locos.

 

On Brush built locos, the 'eyebrow' - the flat panel with the window aperture in it meets in the middle above the window dividing bar whereas Crewe built locos the 'eyebrow' doesn't meet in the middle, but are about 8" apart. Another tell tale sign of who built which loco are the tailights. Brush ones are hinged horizontally, Crewe ones vertically.

 

Word of warning though. Some locos have had replacement cabs over the years and have a Brush one at one end and a Crewe one at the other! As always refer to prototype photos...!

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Hi Derek

quote

"On the subject of boilers, it appears that ALL 47's had the large riveted plate, as per Lima, regardless of which boiler type they had. Did the same also apply to the other boiler exhaust options- ie the port modelled by Lima, did ALL 47's have a blanking plate if the "standard" boiler was used, or did they only cut the hole there on 47's so equipped?"

 

Yes all Lima 47's (incorrectly) had the same boiler roof arrangement, but in reality there were 3 types of boiler/ports fitted to as built prototype 47 locos.

 

Spanner MK3 - a round boiler port - plated over when boilers were removed or isolated  -  for instance  47 546 /47 617 

Clayton MK11 - square port  - open or plated over etc   - 47 717 / 47 636 + others

Stone Vapor   - square port/ grill  - open or plated over etc  - 47 525 / 47 714  + others   (AFAIK this is the type that Lima represented on all their 47 bodyshells)

 

For more info see :  www.class47.co.uk

 

Cheers

Ken

 

The boiler compartment roof Lima did is actually a universal boiler compartment with the exhaust for a Spanner steam generator. the plated area is where the exhaust for a Stones or Clayton steam generator would be.

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