Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[prtrainman]

Graham Muz has answered Spannerman's question but you may also like to look at the chapter headed "liveries" on page 139 of Bulleid Power published in 1990. He mentions that by July 1941 the Southern Railway decided that all locomotives except the 130 express locomotives of the "Lord Nelson", "King Arthur" and "Schools" classes should be painted unlined black.

 

There are some pictures of Blue Star on page 59, and Elders Fyffes on page 140 both in black with no lining in his book. According to page 141 21C11 - 21 were all initially painted in black without lining.

 

The book also mentions on page 139 that Channel Packet was originally painted in matt malachite green: it will be interesting to see if Hornby's version has a matt finish.

That's an interesting one. The fact that the MNs were not included in the list of 'Express' locos could be because Bulleid convinced everybody that they were 'Mixed Traffic' in order to get around wartime restrictions on new-builds. The SR even made sure that they were rostered on a number of 'freight' diagrams.

[JSpencer]

It is beginning to look like the Hornby Maunsell coaches are the only suitable coaches for the Hornby Channel Packet and Royal Mail as it seems that the Pullman trains like the Devon Belle were only reintroduced after the second World War. As I already have a rake of Hornby malachite green Maunsell coaches I am tempted to buy one of these Merchant Navy Pacific.

 

I would like to thank Graham Muz for the information about the Bulleid coaches. Mike King describes these in chapter 9 of his book An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches. Ironically Bachmann's Bulleid coaches as originally released are in a lighter shade of green than Hornby's malachite green Southern coaches. I think it is a pity that Bachmann chose to model the deep ventilator Bulleid coaches both in 00 and N gauges as Bachmann missed an opportunity of satisfying the pre-Nationalisation Southern market.

 

I see that Rothbury cards are producing a card showing the Devon Belle running late in both directions with one being hauled by a malachite green Merchant Navy locomotive. Something to model in future when Hornby introduces a later version of the Merchant Navy Pacific.

 

Yes, but I guess the Maunsell's should be Olive green ones and not the malachite one's due soon. I am not sure when the first coaches were repainted in the brighter green and sunshine letters but it would not surprise me if this was postwar as well. Certainly most of repaints  were only repainted as such post war.

 

In any case, most early photo's shows them on good's trains. Possibly to maintain the illusion of being a mixed traffic type, however some sources say if was due to teething problems.

 

While the rebuilds show little or none variation between each class member, the original merchant navies show a lot of variations. The Clan Line model shows the final roof profile of the chain driven valve gear type, but I wonder if the whole class were so modified prior to being rebuilt along conventional lines or if it was just some members  (and if so which ones?).

Edited August 22, 2016 by JSpencer

[Robin Brasher]

Just looking again at a photo in my well-thumbed edition of Norman Lockett's Southern Steam in the West Country of 21C1 heading a Waterloo-bound express dated 15/10/1948 .Stock appears an even mix of Bulleid and Maunsell.The caption notes : "Other than the early modification to the front smoke trough,the locomotive is still in original form,including the cast brass number and ownership plates affixed to the cabside and tender." i.e. Lined malachite and Southern on tender.Ten months into nationalisation.

Channel Packet was originally painted matt malachite green. By 1948 it would be in gloss malachite green.

[Ian Hargrave]

Yes, but I guess the Maunsell's should be Olive green ones and not the malachite one's due soon. I am not sure when the first coaches were repainted in the brighter green and sunshine letters but it would not surprise me if this was postwar as well. Certainly most of repaints  were only repainted as such post war.

 

In any case, most early photo's shows them on good's trains. Possibly to maintain the illusion of being a mixed traffic type, however some sources say if was due to teething problems.

 

While the rebuilds show little or none variation between each class member, the original merchant navies show a lot of variations. The Clan Line model shows the final roof profile of the chain driven valve gear type, but I wonder if the whole class were so modified prior to being rebuilt along conventional lines or if it was just some members  (and if so which ones?).

Do not forget that it was wartime and moving freight for the war effort was priority.The paint job on the coaches has of necessity be limited to pure guesswork and is governed by the chronic shortages of literally everything,paint and roll film/plates for cameras included.I believe Normann Lockett worked for a chemists in Bristol at the time the images were taken and he would have access to materials for photography that few others had. Wartime photography was mostly forbidden in any case.Don't get too hung up on the liveries used.They would I am sure have been a patchwork in any case.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that malachite livery started being introduced to carriages in 1941/42 but I could be wrong.

[trevor7598]

The images of the forthcoming malachite Maunsell coaches, shown by Hornby, show what I believe are a couple of errors.

Firstly, Brown droplights ?, surely they should be green.

They also show pre- war smoking and non smoking type transfers in the compartment side quarter lights. Post war a white triangular

' no smoking ' transfer with red lettering was introduced, the smoking compartments had nothing, the inference being that smoking

was permitted everywhere else.

I appreciate that there must have been transitional differences at this time, just post war, adjusting to the Bulleid regime etc.

so maybe further research is required.

 

As for the forthcoming Merchant Navy's , put me down for a couple !.

[JSpencer]

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that malachite livery started being introduced to carriages in 1941/42 but I could be wrong.

 

Indeed some sources say as early as 1939!

[ed 66 plant]

Graham----thank you--I now know what little I need to do to convert to 35030 as running in original form,1955-58

much obliged,

Ed

Graham,

             Having seen the 4 body variants with one only with resited safety valves, is this one going to be 35023 ?

Presumably this will be coupled to a 6000G. H.S tender.

Is the full spec of 35023 available for public use?

i.e early emblem,minus cyl. valance etc.

Thank you,

Ed

[No Decorum]

.

 

I don't know, but as pedantry is the order of the day, I would note that "greengrocer" is a single word, not two.

Well spotted but we all slip up from time to time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECR_H_class#/media/File:Fletching_Sheffield_Park_geograph-3282278-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

[toboldlygo]

I was given to understand that the shape was intended to be able to go through a carriage washing plant. Whether they ever did is another question entirely ... I don't think they did.

 

I have only come across one picture of an Air-Smoothed Bulleid going through a carriage washer..

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/blp21.html 

[Graham_Muz]

Graham,

             Having seen the 4 body variants with one only with resited safety valves, is this one going to be 35023 ?

Presumably this will be coupled to a 6000G. H.S tender.

Is the full spec of 35023 available for public use?

i.e early emblem,minus cyl. valance etc.

Thank you,

Ed

35023 (with TTS sound) will be as follows:

Early crest, 6000 gallon tender, front failings between cylinders and buffer beam, safety valves in original forward position.

 

35028 will be as follows:

Early crest, 6000 gallon tender, without the fairings between the front of the cylinders and the buffer beam and with safety vales in the forward position representing the condition she ran in between June 1953 and December 1954

[Dunsignalling]

35023 (with TTS sound) will be as follows:

Early crest, 6000 gallon tender, front failings between cylinders and buffer beam, safety valves in original forward position.

 

35028 will be as follows:

Early crest, 6000 gallon tender, without the fairings between the front of the cylinders and the buffer beam and with safety vales in the forward position representing the condition she ran in between June 1953 and December 1954

Thanks, Graham, that confirms they'll all be too early for me without surgery so I'll wait for the next set of releases.

 

John

Edited August 22, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[toboldlygo]

Interesting, one of the 'first shots' clearly shows the safety valves in their final position and no valences in front of the cylinder's....

[ed 66 plant]

Gentlemen----very interesting--it begs the question what is the rear positioned safety valve body for----surely it cannot be for any of the initial 4 releases.

I think in due course we are going to see a fantastic array of variant pieces to meet most needs.

regards,

Ed

[Graham_Muz]

Bear in mind that the four variants announced so far were originally for 2016 and have been pushed back into 2017 so there is still the potential for other variants to be announced for release in 2017 also.

 

My post above detailing 35023 and 35028 are based on the full set of computer renders that I have in my procession but am not able to share with the express permission of Hornby.

[toboldlygo]

Bear in mind that the four variants announced so far were originally for 2016 and have been pushed back into 2017 so there is still the potential for other variants to be announced for release in 2017 also.

 

My post above detailing 35023 and 35028 are based on the full set of computer renders that I have in my procession but am not able to share with the express permission of Hornby.

 

So when will you start replacing your Merchant Navies on Fisherton Sarum then Graham?

Edited August 22, 2016 by toboldlygo

[Graham_Muz]

Not for a while yet!

 

I already have 6, 14, 15, 21, 22 and 23 in various livery guises along with number 8 on the workbench!

[Robin Brasher]

Returning to the subject of coach liveries in the 1940s this subject is considered on pages 38 and 39 of the first edition of HMRS Livery Register no 3 LSWR and Southern and on pages 25 to 27 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches.

 

A Maunsell set for the Bournemouth Limited had already been painted malachite green by July 1938.  According to page 38 of the Livery Register malachite green had become the general colour for coaches by 1940. On page 27 of An Illustrated History it says that over 10% of the carriage stock and most luggage vans still carried the Maunsell livery in 1948. Some of these would have Bulleid style lettering.

 

Many Southern corridor coaches ran in fixed sets so these should have the same livery.

[Peter Bedding]

Returning to the subject of coach liveries in the 1940s this subject is considered on pages 38 and 39 of the first edition of HMRS Livery Register no 3 LSWR and Southern and on pages 25 to 27 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches.

 

A Maunsell set for the Bournemouth Limited had already been painted malachite green by July 1938.  According to page 38 of the Livery Register malachite green had become the general colour for coaches by 1940. On page 27 of An Illustrated History it says that over 10% of the carriage stock and most luggage vans still carried the Maunsell livery in 1948. Some of these would have Bulleid style lettering.

 

Many Southern corridor coaches ran in fixed sets so these should have the same livery.

 

I don't think that I have ever deliberately procured a loco or train set for static display, but I shall give this some thought. 21C1 in full malachite warpaint would be a cabinet showpiece.

 

PB

[Guest]

Chances of Hornby doing this...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208031305515508&set=gm.542465962621150&type=3&theater

 

Regards,

Matt

[Mallard60022]

I have a photo of '28 in June 1959 and I think the only difference to that stated by Graham in an earlier post is the late crest tender. Looks Like I might get away with only needing this crest change for '28 to run in '58/'59? Can I be reassured?

How wonderful to be able to run both air smoothed and modified MNs through Seaton Junction (Spirit of).

Phil 

[mattingleycustom]

I just hope the big Spam Can is released before Hornby go down the financial toilet pan.

 

I've done my bit: 35028 ordered!

 

Glenn

[Ian Hargrave]

I just hope the big Spam Can is released before Hornby go down the financial toilet pan.

 

I've done my bit: 35028 ordered!

 

Glenn

Indeed,no one wants Spam fritters.

[Spannerman]

Thanks for the replies regarding the wartime black livery and the book recommendation.

 

Nik

[SDJR7F88]

Chances of Hornby doing this...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208031305515508&set=gm.542465962621150&type=3&theater

 

Regards,

Matt

The livery at the top of the list for me! Followed by the Express Blue