Signals on the L&M

[beast66606]

Hmmmn. I had the definition of a block section explained to me at day one of block school, but I take your point, (no pun intended as that would be a turnout).

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

 

 

 

The line between the last stop signal (which can be a section signal or an intermediate block home signal) controlled from one signal box, and the home signal controlled by the next signal box.

 

 

 

No mention of distant signals - and that's from the rule book, whilst I didn't explicitly say "excluding distant signals" as I said, I assume a bit of knowledge that a distant is not a stop signal and therefore plays no part in a block section, so didn't actually have to be mentioned - if you were taught otherwise perhaps the person teaching you should take up another occupation, such as writing Dilbert cartoons or something less operational.

 

I think we've exhausted all the possible errors in my comments, perhaps we should just move on ?

[The Stationmaster]

Hmmmn. I had the definition of a block section explained to me at day one of block school, but I take your point, (no pun intended as that would be a turnout).

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

It was very clearly defined in Post 19 in this thread and amply illustrated in Post No.13 - all people need to do if they have any confusion in their minds is look at those two posts.  And crikey it's nearly 40 years since I was last teaching Signalmen the basic principles of block working and what is in those two posts was as right then as it is today.

[big jim]

thing is mike what is 'clearly defined' to the likes of yourself and others who work/worked on the railway may be gobblebygook to someone who is just starting out, as you say you have had many years of dealing with it day in day out so you know your onions

 

when i started on the railway, ok only 15 years ago, even with an interest in trains i couldnt tell you how a semaphore block section worked, all i knew from my trainspotting days was stood on a station, if the signal went up (or down) that normally meant a train was coming and that was good enough for me!

 

move on 20 odd years to training to be a driver thats when it moves on to a whole new level of understanding, learning about the principles of signalling obviously and relating what you learn on paper to the real world, now as an instructor i always make sure that my trainees do a number of trips with me over semaphore lines, even if their core routes dont have any, it gives them a basic footing and also if course shows me they understand the system, a good run is crewe to derby via stoke as its a mix of tcb, ab, colour light, axle counters semaphores etc, but then to throw a spanner in the works we do a few trips through shrewsbury!

 

as an example of differing levels of understanding i'll always remember my first week (first day in fact) of my drivers course the instructor started with the basics (ie this is track, this is ballast etc) and when he mentioned 'bogies' one of the off the street guys (a former undertaker) asked "whats a bogie?" what was 2nd nature to the instructor, and myself as an enthusiast was completly alien to someone who had never set foot into the 'railway world', it was then you realised how many different levels we were all on!

 

a couple of drivers struggled with the signalling protocol side of things early on so we all got together in my attic and set up the signals on my layout to simulate block sections etc, we even used smarties to simulate colour light signals which they found quite useful (and tasty!)

[the penguin of doom]

if you were taught otherwise perhaps the person teaching you should take up another occupation, such as writing Dilbert cartoons or something less operational.

It's a shame Dave as I thought we were beginning to get into a good natter about signalling, but I find this comment to be unnecessary especially given that my tutor is not here to defend himself. For the record, due to this extremely professional railwaymans efforts, I, (and many of my fellow students), passed out of block school with distinction which I'm sure you'll be aware is the highest accolade.

 

Drawing a line under it, I feel my achievements speak for themselves but I was aiming to clarify your posts which appear to contradict post 19 so that those with less experience stood at least some chance of understanding what is, admittedly, a potentially confusing subject.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[The Stationmaster]

In some respects I'm not at all sure about 'Block School' - the courses which were run at Webb House at Crewe were extremely professional and well provided with example equipment for training but the theory part is, literally, only part of the process and the Block Regulations are - as ever - only part of a Signalman's job (I much prefer the old term).   I remember many years ago we had a youngster start in one of our 'boxes who was extremely good on the theory but who had some personality problems which led to him behaving in a way which didn't suit the teamwork required in working between signalboxes.  After a couple of warnings, in a very short time, it was clear he wasn't going to make it so I took him out of the job and he left the industry.

 

I was interested in Jim's comments above and I think he does absolutely the right thing in getting trainees acquainted with semaphore signalling as it is, still I think, the best way to learn the basics which can then be readily adjusted to other systems.  As far as definitions etc are concerned I have always found - in both learning, examining, and writing Rules & Regulations that the best approach is consistent terminology and explaining it because if you explain what each term (e.g. a block section or 'Section Signal' is those who are learning usually find it easier to grasp and understand the idea and even the principles (most of which are very simple in isolation).  And that can be very important - for instance I always found when carrying out Rules exams that the way not to do it was ask what a particular Rule or Regulation says but to ask the examinee what he would do in circumstances which I outlined to him.  That tested his knowledge of the practical application of Rules etc far more than asking what Rule XYZ says - it is incidentally one reason why I am still not in favour of written or computerised exams when passing out or re-examining people as they simply do not allow the examiner to properly assess the practical understanding of such knowledge.

 

Written exams can be fun as the old Safe Working of Trains course were a nice way of getting a bit of tax free income and there was a lot of competition - not so much to get high marks but to get the highest mark on the Region (in the Cardiff Division it was expected that certain of us would always get Merit passes - it was just a question of which one of us would get the highest; no I didn't a Supervisor from Newport panel beat me into 2nd place on the Advanced course).

 

I'm glad to hear too the way Jim tries to train Drivers as I have been little short of amazed at various times over the years just how little understanding of various Rules etc some Drivers had and I'm sure today's far better training standards plus regular briefings have done much to improve that situation.  Training for many grades might nowadays be much more compressed than it used to be but often (alas not always) it is handled far better.

[ElectroSoldier]

The reason why I asked where the Intermediate block home signal comes in is because I watched this and it doesnt really make it clear.

 

 

I mean I know it goes in the block section but it doesnt say that it splits it up into two.

[The Stationmaster]

The reason why I asked where the Intermediate block home signal comes in is because I watched this and it doesnt really make it clear.

 

 

I mean I know it goes in the block section but it doesnt say that it splits it up into two.

Unfortunately it's an easy to make a video with poor explanations as it is to write something or inadequately explain it verbally.  If you still have any problems grasping the concept of an IB Section just look at the pictograms in the Rule Book link I gave earlier as you can at least see from them how it fits in - and there's the sketch in Post No.13.

[ElectroSoldier]

Yes thank you, I sorted it all out in my head as soon as I realised there is an Intermediate block section and an Absolute block section.
Which I got from the rule book you linked to.

 

It is as you implied all rather simple once you have a grasp of the basics