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Andy Y

Minerva Model Railways - a new O Gauge manufacturer is launched and announces Peckett E Class

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Hi Paul - well, when they're working this hard, I defy just about anyone to differentiate between this Hudswell Clarke and a Peckett!!

 

It must be hard to find sources of locos (this sort of size) regularly working at full chat.....!

 

All the best

 

Giles

Erm... Foxfield or Pontypool & Blaenavon?

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For those of you seeking inspiration, I was recently given this photo of Peckett 1151 in Swansea. I think the SHT was using PECO Set-Track at the time.

I wonder if this was the curve where Baz Turner got so fed up with cars encroaching on the track that he brought a Gane A from Burrows Sidings, using the overhang to knock them out of the way? Baz was the father of Les, who older Swansea readers might remember from Atkinson's Sports, and then from his own shop in Brynymor Road.

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Erm... Foxfield or Pontypool & Blaenavon?

Foxfield at 1:19, Pontypool & Blaenavon at 1:29

But Fawley at 1:13

we've got three places in the country to choose from at any rate - probably more....!

Edited by Giles

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I've been looking at lots of pictures over the last few days as I'm doing a bit of research for Severn mill nameplates and both the ex SHT & P&M locos that where renumbered in early BR days didn't have the GWR above the number on the cab side plates. The originals did in the pictures I've found.

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I belive that the missing GWR above the number was a result of the renumbering occuring in 1948/49 after nationalisation, when, of course, the Great Western would have ceased to exist.

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Your right Chris, I've come across a few incorrect models that have plates with the GWR on the cab side plates.

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Just noticed this & very interested maybe excited is a better word. Will it be out before the Dapol Terrier? Seriously would like one of these. If it is to be out for Christmas then I have a little time to pick the colour scheme & start the railway!  Just come in from building a work bench in the shed. So making progress steadily. 

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Not sure if this is the right type of Peckett, but I snapped this on Saturday at Chatham Dockyard ... just to wet your appetites!

 

post-7154-0-45361300-1427058806_thumb.jpg

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Not sure if this is the right type of Peckett, but I snapped this on Saturday at Chatham Dockyard ... just to wet your appetites!

 

attachicon.gifIMG_6381.JPG

This is an M5 0-4-0 Peckett built in 1936. It is smaller than the E class, which is the subject of the Minerva model, with smaller wheels and a shorter wheelbase.

 

Just noticed this & very interested maybe excited is a better word. Will it be out before the Dapol Terrier? Seriously would like one of these. If it is to be out for Christmas then I have a little time to pick the colour scheme & start the railway!  Just come in from building a work bench in the shed. So making progress steadily. 

It is our plan to have the Peckett available in time for Christmas this year.

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It is our plan to have the Peckett available in time for Christmas this year.

Happy Christmas to me !! Edited by steve fay

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Will you have an Australian Distributor, or will I have to wait for the Royal Mail to get mine to the ends of the earth?

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I'm sure it is far too early to say what is next for Minerva after the Peckett, but -

 

I do so hope there is a picture of it in this new book!    :secret:

 

post-17823-0-42751100-1428431682.jpg

Edited by Osgood

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Martin,

You will have to order from the UK.

 

Well, I hope we have a good exchange rate when they hit the shelves! Years ago we had a terrible exchange rate which made Peco points rediculously expensive for a couple of years.

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Are you able to add more information and images of Peckett E Class Locomotives?

 

Minerva Model Railways announced at Kettering that they will be offering a RTR Peckett E Class, which is expected to be available by the end of the year. I have found no indication of an exact prototype, although their CAD illustrations suggest that one of the South Wales locos that came into GWR ownership is a likely candidate.

 

As is my usual way, I wished to find an alternative to depicting my model (when it is available) as rather similar to most others so I followed up leads on the company of Peckett & Sons and was able to establish that they delivered 52 locomotives designated as 'E Class'.

 

It is tempting to assume that all these locomotives looked similar but, as in large classes of mainline locomotives, this is far from the case. The specification for a standard E Class was 0-4-0ST, outside cylinders, 15" diameter by 21" stroke and wheels of 3' 7" in diameter. However, as Frank Jux points out (in Peckett & Sons, Locomotive Works List, Compiled by Frank Jux, 1987, Distributed by The Industrial Locomotive Society ):

  • "Most Peckett locomotives were built to standard designs, although with variations in detail of varying degrees - such as height and width ..."
and
  • "Although mostly built to standard classes, modifications could be quite extensive, and even extend to the substitution of sidetanks for a saddle-tank, and the provision of six wheels instead of four. Steelworks locomotives would usually be of heavier build, as would those built for main line use."
So far, I have found only two images of locomotives that I can be reasonably sure were E Class and they are not that similar to each other nor to the image of the isometric drawing that is used by Minerva. These images, along with other information and a table that lists the E Class locomotives with their building dates, names, numbers and first owners, may be found at:

 

www.davidlosmith.co.uk/Peckett-E-Class.htm

To help choose a prototype to model, I would be very interested to gather more information and to see more images of Peckett E Class locos, which I shall publish there with full acknowledgement if that is your wish.

 

David

Edited by Isambarduk
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Great stuff David, it will be very interesting to see what you discover.  I have been looking for some "ORIGINAL" colour schemes thinking that may be the main changes about just to make my loco a little different.

I'll be looking to see what modifications you find particularly something like side tanks. 

One to watch indeed.

 

Regards

 

Edit: David I'm lacking in the knowledge of what types had what done to them, is there a link anywhere that shows all the mod types and what it was that is different to each?

I'm not looking for subtle changes but something a little more obvious like side tanks or cab changes just so long as they happened.

Edited by Barnaby

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David

 

I have already posted 2 photos on this thread of Class E Pecketts. E.g.  

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96810-minerva-model-railways-a-new-o-gauge-manufacturer-is-launched-and-announces-peckett-e-class/?p=1813485

shows, amongst other things, a straight handrail on the front of the smokebox, tank lifting rings, different safety valve arrangement etc. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96810-minerva-model-railways-a-new-o-gauge-manufacturer-is-launched-and-announces-peckett-e-class/?p=1814204

shows another but perhaps closer to the Minerva variant.

 

No fewer than 7 of the Class E locos were Swansea-based for most of their working lives. Works no 1054 (shown by Lux as Loughor Colliery) was P&M no. 11 and became GWR 927.

 

Dave

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"David I'm lacking in the knowledge of what types had what done to them ..."
Me too; that's exactly the type of thing I'm hoping to find out.

"is there a link anywhere that shows all the mod types and what it was that is different to each?"
Now wouldn't that just be nice!  Please do let me know when you find it :-)

"I'm not looking for subtle changes but something a little more obvious like side tanks or cab changes ..."
That's also my plan.

"... just so long as they happened."
I am hoping so, too but, if I fail to find anything suitable, I might just take off on my own furrow with a composite of features that appear on Pecketts and choose a colour/livery.

"I have already posted 2 photos on this thread of Class E Pecketts."
Yes, sorry, I did see these at the time. I was hoping for images of locos in the earlier parts of their PO lives (rather than BR era)

David

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Just looking through the list of E Class which you put on your site, David - the third but last was Hodbarrow No 4, built 1933.  The last two (1940) went to the Royal Arsenal to join earlier members of the same class.

 

There is a picture of this locomotive on P 37 of 'MILLOM A Cumberland Town & its Railways' by Atkinson, published by Cumbrian Railways Association (www.cumbrianrailways.org.uk).  What this shows is pretty much the same as the early South Wales Docks locomotives, albeit with later type safety valves.  Even the curved smokebox front wings are there.

 

It is possible the last two might have been to a more modern style, especially given the wartime build date.  I'm afraid I have no reference material on The Royal Arsenal rail system and stock to search for pictures.

 

From what I have learned over the years, Peckett variations occurred for two reasons - age related design detail and specific operator requirement.

 

An 'age related design detail' example might be late C19th / early C20th engines had old fashioned design detail like curved smokebox wing plates, straight on most builds from late 30s / early 40s.

'Operator requirement' might typically be a lowered rear footplate and cab for reduced height operation e.g. gas retort houses or low bridge (a good example here on RMWeb is HORNET latterly of Bersham Colliery Wrexham - see http://ribblesteam.org.uk/exhibits/steam/42-peckett-1935-1937-hornet), or heavier buffer beams for additional weight / strength.

 

Looking through the customers on the build list, one could easily imagine the vast majority of applications would be standard design builds for general shunting duties?

 

I would be amazed if anything as radical as a side tank fitted E Class were to come to light - and given that the E CLass was redesigned in the 1940s my money would be on the class members being remarkably similar.

 

I do not believe there is a list giving detail departures from the standard design.   some design variations gave rise to partial G.A.s as noted in the drawing lists found on the NRM website.  In fact these might be worth scrutinising for possible E Class content.

 

Tony

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David - have a close look at the two pictures you put up on your webpage from Martyn's site - 1011 BEAUFORT and 1054.

 

There is something not right here.  To my eye ( and even after making allowances for the late hour!), 1011 appears to show a smaller design of locomotive than 1054 (note tank height against cab front, cylinder and wheel size, lighter frame design at rear).

 

I would suggest 1054 is a pedigree E Class, and just maybe the BEAUFORT plates have been put on a different type of locomotive for a 'Works' photograph?

Edited by Osgood

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Dave - just looking quickly at the age-sorted pictures on Martyn Bane's site, smokebox handrails might have gone all straight circa 1912?  I would the tank lifting eyes were a GWR / BR addition as I do not recall seeing another (industrial user) Peckett so fitted.

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Dave - just looking quickly at the age-sorted pictures on Martyn Bane's site, smokebox handrails might have gone all straight circa 1912?  I would the tank lifting eyes were a GWR / BR addition as I do not recall seeing another (industrial user) Peckett so fitted.

Perhaps, but SHT W.no 1053 had the tank lifting eyes but W no. 1105 did not. All of the P & M Pecketts had them. 1179 & 1328 both had open rears to the cabs but all of the other P & M and SHT had closed cabs with spectacle windows.

All of them had bells and whistles!

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OK - Official Works Photographs:

 

Turns out that the Martyn Bane BEAUFORT is a photo of the first Class M5 built - 1055 / 1905 for the Beaufort Works Ltd of Morriston, Glamorgan.

 

This and a lot more information can be found in a recent book from IRS - Peckett & Sons Ltd An Album of Official Works Photograghs by Andrew Smith.  This book will shatter any confidence you might have had in the use of official works photos alone as evidence!

 

It also contains an official photo of the first E Class, 1000 / 1903 (but depicted in the official photo as 1001) for Ebbw Vale, one of 1054 / 1907, and one of 1465 / 1917 (but depicted in the photo as 1464 - 1465 being another Ebbw Vale loco, whereas 1464 was fitted with a spark arrestor for the Royal Arsenal).

 

And a photo of the first E1 (the redesigned E) 2108 / 1950, which represent a possible conversion opportunity for the Minerva E?  First glance differences being a modern cab front window profile and straight rear frame

 

The evidence from the photos listed above and others in the thread so far, suggests (to me at least) that all E Class locos were identical upon leaving the factory (other than the move away from Salter safety valves - the last Salter valves being seen on a works photo of 1910, and the spark arrestors).

 

If that is so, then any variations will be of the 'user' variety - which could be pretty much anything….!

 

I would highly recommend the book.

Edited by Osgood

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Thank you Tony and Dave - just the kind of input that I was hoping for and that I believe that others may also find useful! I shall update my Peckett webpage later today.

Right, purchase a copy of Peckett & Sons Ltd An Album of Official Works Photograghs by Andrew Smith it is then :-)

David

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