Is pre-grouping possible?

[JimF51]

For quite a few years now, I have been wandering through the subject of UK modelling, from the other side of the so-called pond. I am pretty parochial in my interest, the pre-grouping SER/LCDR/SECR lines of Kent. I realize there is very little in the way of RTR in any of the primary scales.

 

I have looked at 4mm (OO), obviously the most selection of items available, but no RTR appropriate track (bullhead). I do find the 'narrow gauge' look of OO standard track off putting, so would have to work on EM or P4 to fix that, but then that means having to do minor to major work on possible RTR rolling stock to re-gauge it, though kits could and would be built to correct gauge. However, I've yet to find even loco kits that are appropriate for say, pre 1890.

 

In 7mm (O), there is a decent line of kits from SER Kits, that fit the bill. But the cost to go that route would be much higher. And again, track is a issue. Peco does make a line of track with bullhead rail, but from what I have read, there are still issues. Also have to add in the cost of shipping to the US.

 

I've also explored 2mm (N), and much as I like the better track to scenerey ratio, I've shied away from working to that size again, as I felt I wanted a change. I have spent most of my US rail modelling time working in US N, with some time working in HOn30. Again, I haven't fond any RTR pregrouping stock, and have not found any kits, either, though I will admit I didn't finish looking, as I decided to explore the larger scales 1st.

 

Soo....

 

Is it possible? Are there 2mm kits out there? Are there figures available for the period? I saw on a blog on here where someone had turnout fixtures made by the folks at Fast Tracks, but they are for flat bottom rail. Is there anything similar for bullhead rail? If not, are there filing jigs to at least form Vs and blades? Are ther custom loco builders, and would having a loco done cast me more than the approx. £300+ for a 7mm kit (that includes the extras, wheels, motor, etc..)?

 

I know I have more exploring to do, and I will. I know I'm asking a lot of questions, and don't expect anyone to write out all they know about this, but I'm so befuddled about which scale/gauge to go, and do so want to get into actual modelling before my days are ended

 

Thank you.

 

Jim F

[garethashenden]

Well first of all there's scale. Do you want to do this in 2mm Finescale or do you want to do it in N? If you want to do it in N with RTR stock then you're pretty much limited to what's already out there or may soon be out there, which isn't much. If on the other hand you're willing to do kit and scratchbuilding then you can do most anything in 2mm. The are etches available for a couple of SECR locomotives from Worsley Works, but they don't include any castings.

 

There is continued confusion among some people that 2mm = N, which isn't really true. They are similar and a lot of scenic materials can be shared. But it's not like 4mm where OO, EM, and P4 are all the same scale.

 

There is a 2FS locomotive on eBay at the moment. It's a Southern M7 but it will give you some idea of the cost should you require someone to build all your engines for you. Again, it won't run on N gauge track. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231483851125?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[JimF51]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Ok, perhaps I am even more confused than I thought. I do realize N = 1:148 and 2mm = 1:152, but I also was under the impression that one could work much like the folks doing EM in 4mm. That is, building more correct gauge track, and in many, or at least some cases, modifying RTR N wagons and coaches for that track, as well as modifying locos.

 

If it would let me model what I would like to, I have no problem with track or kit building. But, for example, the Worsley Works etches you mention, are there the castings and all else needed to build a loco out there, from other suppliers?

 

With regards to the M7 on ebay, the price is at least for a RTR item. That same price would be what a 7mm kit and associated parts needed to complet it would cost me. But are there builders out there that could build the appropriate locos, if I had to go that route?

 

Jim F

[burgundy]

Soo....

 

Is it possible? Are there 2mm kits out there? Are there figures available for the period? I saw on a blog on here where someone had turnout fixtures made by the folks at Fast Tracks, but they are for flat bottom rail. Is there anything similar for bullhead rail? If not, are there filing jigs to at least form Vs and blades? Are ther custom loco builders, and would having a loco done cast me more than the approx. £300+ for a 7mm kit (that includes the extras, wheels, motor, etc..)?

 

Jim

You might want to have a look here

http://www.ultima-models.co.uk/catalogue/sr-secr.html

Best wishes

Eric

[JimF51]

Thanks Eric. I have seen those before.

 

More exploring, and I suppose I might be able to live with the compormise of going standard N and using the new line of track from Finetrax, though a pic of a Union Mills loco head on looked like it had wheels off of a road roller

 

More exploring and reading, I guess.

 

Jim F

[nick_bastable]

Worsleyworks do a 0/01 and G class  in 2mm and several coaches although be warned the 0/01 is very small (guess how I know and failed   well at least so far)

 

There's a etch for a C Class see Valentins topic 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40170-my-2mm-fs-work/page-4

 

Ultima do a few bits 

 

The Grafar N Class   should be convertible to 2mm if they use the hornblocks as per the Jinty

 

so at least  four potential locomotives 

[Valentin]

And there is an etch for the Class H - the chassis is quite difficult to build and involve some work to accommodate a gear box but the rumour is that the new Chris Higgs replacement chassis for the M7 (Graham Farish) will fit to this etch for the Class H as well.

 

In my opinion, the great fun with the 2mm Fine scale, especially when it involves pre-Grouping, is it requires plenty of scratch and kit building and for me this is the real railway modelling.

[JimF51]

I don't prefer to scratchbuild, more because it takes more of my limited modelling time away many of the others things that need to be done to actually build a layout. I do like kit building, but it isn't a joy if I have to order all sorts of other items to complete the kit. If I lived in the UK, that might not be so much of a issue, being able to get the items fairly quickly by ordering via phone or email, or at a show. But not being over there makes it much more difficult.

 

The locos mentioned are pre-grouping, but not for as early a period as I would like.

 

Even in 4mm, I have yet to find locos in kit form that seem correct, though there are some for the LBSC, so perhaps a re-think is needed.

 

Jim F

[Graham Hughes]

I don't prefer to scratchbuild, more because it takes more of my limited modelling time 

That is one of the beauties of 2mm. Scratch building takes less time than in the bigger scales. You spend a lot less time cutting out the parts for a 2mm model than one in 4mm or 7mm. The same with soldering them together. You also don't need many of the finer detail parts which would be too small to include in 2mm model and can be either left off altogether or represented by something a lot more simple than the fully detailed parts you would need to make in the bigger scales.

[JimF51]

Ah, but for a layout in a given space, I might only need or want 1 or 2 locos, in 4mm, maybe 4 or 5, and in 2mm, maybe a dozen. So would 10 or 12 scratchbuilt 2mm locos take all that less time than the number needed in the larger scales?

 

I fully admire those who really enjoy scratchbuilding, but I don't call it real railway modelling. Rail model engineering, perhaps. Someone who builds a layout that captures the overall look and atmosphere of railway scene, using what he or she is capable of buying or building to make the scene realistic is more whom I would call a 'real model railway' person. Just my own opinion.

 

Jim F

[Phil Copleston]

I fully admire those who really enjoy scratchbuilding, but I don't call it real railway modelling. Rail model engineering, perhaps. Someone who builds a layout that captures the overall look and atmosphere of railway scene, using what he or she is capable of buying or building to make the scene realistic is more whom I would call a 'real model railway' person. Just my own opinion. 

 

Jim,

 

On the contrary - surely scratchbuilding (i.e. making things from basic materials) is at the very heart of what model-making and railway modelling is all about. Just because today there are a plethora of commercial models available (in most other scales) doesn't change the core craft-aspect of our hobby. To say scratchbuilding is not railway modelling is to completely miss the point. I think you are confusing scratchbuilding with miniature engineering, which is a wholly different approach. You can scratchbuild locos and wagons without resorting to the latter, but a positive attitude towards the former liberates you to make almost anything you want! 

 

The process of "making things" can give as much pleasure as completing a layout (or any other aim). If you are not prepared to have a go and make some items from scratch yourself in 2mm scale, and you find no joy in building available kits, then all you'll end up doing is collecting commercial items and assembling them on a board. Hardly what 2mm finescale is all about. 

 

Ah, but for a layout in a given space, I might only need or want 1 or 2 locos, in 4mm, maybe 4 or 5, and in 2mm, maybe a dozen. So would 10 or 12 scratchbuilt 2mm locos take all that less time than the number needed in the larger scales?

 

I would argue that "building a layout" is not the only goal of railway modelling (although often desirable). You don't need a dozen locos in 2mm scale to run a satisfying layout. Try starting off with a very modest goal in 2mm - say one or two locos to start with - and build up from there. Finescale railway modelling is a mind-set thing, not a goal-driven race.

[Graham Hughes]

Ah, but for a layout in a given space, I might only need or want 1 or 2 locos, in 4mm, maybe 4 or 5, and in 2mm, maybe a dozen. 

How many locos you need is as much a function of the type of layout you are building as the size. You might model a branch line in 2mm including the terminus and two or three intermediate stations and the line in between and you'd still only need a couple of locos the same as if you just built one of the stations in 4mm or 7mm. A loco shed layout in the larger scales might require a lot more locos. A lot of very interesting locations that would make excellent subjects for a model would not see a dozen different locos on a given day. 

 

Personally I have been railway modelling for over forty years and have just bought the plywood to build my first layout since I dismantled the one that grew from my first train set. Scratch-building is my main interest in the hobby. 

[Donw]

The M7 on ebay was built by a 2mm association member from a Worsley kit and detailed in the 2mm magazine, It was also professionally painted I suspect if being done to order the price would have been higher.

If you want to go pre-group for the SECR/LCDR you will have to do some kit building/scratch building whatever scale you choose.

 

In 7mm there are possibly more kits available in this scale. It suits those who enjoy building kits or scratchbuilding where the focus is on detailed models. Some kits can be very detailed. The coast are high. You can add quite a bit for a professional paint job if you do not feel up to doing it yourself. You also need a lot of space for a model layout. Usually there is restricted room for scenery.

 

In 2mm you will find there are less kits available. However people find it more cost effective to produce there own artwork for things they want etched. Models do not have to be as detailed as in 7mm. The real advantage of the scale is you can make a model of a railway in its setting in a reasonable space. The focus tends to be on the setting rather than the individual models, althought these days some beautiful models are being built. Look at Jerry Clifford Tucking Mill thread to see a beautiful example of modelling a setting in quite a small space.

 

On the other hand is you would prefer to buy RTR models you either need deep pockets or stick to commercial offerings even in 4mm you will not find much for  the SECR.

 

If you fancy the 2mm size go for finescale. It will be easier to build your own stuff  or use available etchings in 2mm finescale. Howver don't tell anyone but we regulary cheat and use N gauge 1:148 scale bodies with a finescale chassis. For years the N scale stuff was crude and often overscale so the association carried on with 2mm. Now most members are a little flexible.

 

In short what do you enjoy doing and what sort of layout do you want?

 

Don

[Crosland]

Ah, but for a layout in a given space, I might only need or want 1 or 2 locos, in 4mm, maybe 4 or 5, and in 2mm, maybe a dozen.

 

Alternatively stick with just a few locos and build the layout in a smaller space or use the space to create a much more realistic layout.

 

Andrew

[ExPatBrit]

For quite a few years now, I have been wandering through the subject of UK modelling, from the other side of the so-called pond. I am pretty parochial in my interest, the pre-grouping SER/LCDR/SECR lines of Kent. I realize there is very little in the way of RTR in any of the primary scales.

 

I have looked at 4mm (OO), obviously the most selection of items available, but no RTR appropriate track (bullhead). I do find the 'narrow gauge' look of OO standard track off putting, so would have to work on EM or P4 to fix that, but then that means having to do minor to major work on possible RTR rolling stock to re-gauge it, though kits could and would be built to correct gauge. However, I've yet to find even loco kits that are appropriate for say, pre 1890.

 

In 7mm (O), there is a decent line of kits from SER Kits, that fit the bill. But the cost to go that route would be much higher. And again, track is a issue. Peco does make a line of track with bullhead rail, but from what I have read, there are still issues. Also have to add in the cost of shipping to the US.

 

I've also explored 2mm (N), and much as I like the better track to scenerey ratio, I've shied away from working to that size again, as I felt I wanted a change. I have spent most of my US rail modelling time working in US N, with some time working in HOn30. Again, I haven't fond any RTR pregrouping stock, and have not found any kits, either, though I will admit I didn't finish looking, as I decided to explore the larger scales 1st.

 

Soo....

 

Is it possible? Are there 2mm kits out there? Are there figures available for the period? I saw on a blog on here where someone had turnout fixtures made by the folks at Fast Tracks, but they are for flat bottom rail. Is there anything similar for bullhead rail? If not, are there filing jigs to at least form Vs and blades? Are ther custom loco builders, and would having a loco done cast me more than the approx. £300+ for a 7mm kit (that includes the extras, wheels, motor, etc..)?

 

I know I have more exploring to do, and I will. I know I'm asking a lot of questions, and don't expect anyone to write out all they know about this, but I'm so befuddled about which scale/gauge to go, and do so want to get into actual modelling before my days are ended

 

Thank you.

 

Jim F

Hi Jim, I used to live about 4 miles north of the Freighliner plant in Cleveland half way between Salisbury and Statesville. Spent many happy hours in the NCTM and the Alladdins cave that is Choo Choo Trains in Spencer.

Anyway, I can't help you with the 2mm finescale stuff, but you mentioned EM gauge, which I may be able to offer some assistance.

I have a quantity of EM gauge C&L flex trak still in the original boxes, some built and unbuilt copper clad C&L switch/point kits and the EM Gauge Society manual circa 1985. If you pay postage from Delaware, they're yours, I'll never use the stuff now, I'm firmly OO gauge. If you're interested, PM me and I'll put together a list of what I've got.

 

Roland

[JimF51]

Roland, thank you. I sent you a private message.

 

Jim F

[JimF51]

With Roland's offer above, I think that will settle my mental quandry regarding what scale/gauge I work in, thanks all who replied.

 

I think we will have to agree to disafree, regarding scratchbuilding. One does not need to be a scrtachbuilder to be a 'real' railway modeller, just as one does not have to be a railway modeller to be a scratchbuilder. It's just a hobby, with a huge number of aspects that one can enjoy Each person finds the one or more aspect that they enjoy more than other aspects, as it should be. I have scratchbuilt 2 structures and several frieght cars for my US modelling, in the past, but only because I wanted those certain items, and they were not available any other way. Those projects were part of the journey along the way, not the final destination.

 

Thanks again.

 

Jim F

[Chris Higgs]

And there is an etch for the Class H - the chassis is quite difficult to build and involve some work to accommodate a gear box but the rumour is that the new Chris Higgs replacement chassis for the M7 (Graham Farish) will fit to this etch for the Class H as well.

 

In my opinion, the great fun with the 2mm Fine scale, especially when it involves pre-Grouping, is it requires plenty of scratch and kit building and for me this is the real railway modelling.

 

Don't know who started that rumour. I have had to do a new iteration on the M7 etch as Dapol have taken a very impressionist approach to their M7 body, its a bit of a combination of the long and short frame versions, and scale somewhat indeterminate, with the fornt splasher position not matching anything. Don't know why I thought they would have done it right, but being naive I did. So in order not to look silly, I have had to produce the etch to match the body. Which means it is very unlikely to match anything else. I did hear that someone had used the Association 14XX chassis etch to motorise an H Class.

 

Chris 

[Donw]

Best wishes with your choice Jim. I still think you may have to resort to scratchbuilding if you stick to your choice of prototype. In my experience (some 30 odd years ago ) the EM gauge society were a nice group. I think it would be worth joining.

Don

[Steve Sykes]

Don't know who started that rumour. I have had to do a new iteration on the M7 etch as Dapol have taken a very impressionist approach to their M7 body, its a bit of a combination of the long and short frame versions, and scale somewhat indeterminate, with the fornt splasher position not matching anything. Don't know why I thought they would have done it right, but being naive I did. So in order not to look silly, I have had to produce the etch to match the body. Which means it is very unlikely to match anything else. I did hear that someone had used the Association 14XX chassis etch to motorise an H Class.

 

Chris

 

 

That's a pity - I was hoping to use the 2mm scale chassis under the Worsley Works body, but presumably the 2mm version won't see the light of day.

[Chris Higgs]

That's a pity - I was hoping to use the 2mm scale chassis under the Worsley Works body, but presumably the 2mm version won't see the light of day.

 

I will have to think about this. I think the version I have now is to 2mm scale but with extension at the front, as that seems to be the scale of the Dapol body. Might work, might not.

 

EDIT: yes, after going over the artwork looks like I went for the solution of producing the chassis to correct wheelbase for 2mm scale, and adjusting the ends to get the front wheel in line with the Dapol splasher. So in principle this should be useable as a chassis under a true 2mm M7.

 

Chris

[Chris Higgs]

That's a pity - I was hoping to use the 2mm scale chassis under the Worsley Works body, but presumably the 2mm version won't see the light of day.

 

If the work I have been doing on producing functional chassis blocks (see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40081-etched-loco-chassis/page-17#entry1717961) everbears fruit, it might be possible to produce these for Worsley Works kits, just retaining the frames etc provided on the etch as cosmetic overlays. The gear meshing, motor mounts and so on would be built into the block.

 

Chris