Layout Design Software

[Andy Reichert]

It was my intention to use Templot to produce templates to use as a tool to produce hand made track. I wouldn't touch Peco etc with a bargepole.

 

No amount of shouting on your part will disguise the fact that your product is very unfriendly and is therefore unfit for purpose. During my career I was a Business Analyst and Acceptance Test Manager for 15 years so I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to specifying and testing software applications. I think Templot is one of the worst, if not quite the worst, piece of software I've ever come across and there is no way, absolutely no way, that Templot would or could have passed any professional testing regime.

 

Speaking as both a somewhat experienced computer systems pioneer and turned hobby accurate model track designer here in the USA. I must strongly disagree with the above remarks.

 

First Templot is not a product, it's an outstanding, ongoing and most generous gift to the Model Railway Community and should be graciously accepted as such.

 

Second it's probably the most powerful and comprehensive SW for plotting complex hand-laid track formations ever made. And you can't even begin to describe such formations without being able to first understand and then specify a very large number of parameters to input to any such equally capable program.

 

Third, there is no such thing as "worst" or any other subjective degree of "quality" in engineering testing. Any device or product either meets its design specification, or it doesn't, and so fails testing in a noted specific case or cases. Knowing the official specification in precise detail is of course a prerequisite for assessing any test criteria and their tested results.

 

Hope this clarifies and corrects the misunderstandings.

 

Andy

[meil]

It was my intention to use Templot to produce templates to use as a tool to produce hand made track. I wouldn't touch Peco etc with a bargepole.

 

No amount of shouting on your part will disguise the fact that your product is very unfriendly and is therefore unfit for purpose. During my career I was a Business Analyst and Acceptance Test Manager for 15 years so I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to specifying and testing software applications. I think Templot is one of the worst, if not quite the worst, piece of software I've ever come across and there is no way, absolutely no way, that Templot would or could have passed any professional testing regime.

In order to use Templot you have to take the time to understand how real track goes together and understand the necessary geometry of real track work design. It is obvious that you do not and clearly you have no intention of finding out either.

 

As Martin has said if you want to play with toy track use Anyrail.

[Theheretic]

Speaking as both a somewhat experienced computer systems pioneer and turned hobby accurate model track designer here in the USA. I must strongly disagree with the above remarks.

 

First Templot is not a product, it's an outstanding, ongoing and most generous gift to the Model Railway Community and should be graciously accepted as such.

 

Second it's probably the most powerful and comprehensive SW for plotting complex hand-laid track formations ever made. And you can't even begin to describe such formations without being able to first understand and then specify a very large number of parameters to input to any such equally capable program.

 

Third, there is no such thing as "worst" or any other subjective degree of "quality" in engineering testing. Any device or product either meets its design specification, or it doesn't, and so fails testing in a noted specific case or cases. Knowing the official specification in precise detail is of course a prerequisite for assessing any test criteria and their tested results.

 

Hope this clarifies and corrects the misunderstandings.

 

Andy

 

All true, but wait there's more.........:

 

you also get access to support via the Templot Club.

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/

 

I am often amazed at the comprenhesive level of support available from Martin and the other members of the Templot Club group, all available for free.

 

Pierre

[Andy Reichert]

All true, but wait there's more.........:

 

you also get access to support via the Templot Club.

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/

 

I am often amazed at the comprenhesive level of support available from Martin and the other members of the Templot Club group, all available for free.

 

Pierre

 

And it doesn't need a "buy and sell" section.

 

Andy

[Siberian Snooper]

Templot is equal to input, the more you put in the more you get out.

[martin_wynne]

Many thanks for the kind words about Templot.

 

But I think an apology is due to the OP Andy on this topic who was asking about designing a layout using N gauge commercial track -- for which discussion about Templot is irrelevant.

 

Andy, if you want a paid-for program my suggestions would be:

 

AnyRail is easy to use and colourful -- http://anyrail.com

 

3rd PlanIt is top-of-the-range with full 3D walk-throughs and simulation train running: http://trackplanning.com

 

Both of them have restricted free trials.

 

If you prefer a free program, Milen Peev is doing a great job with SCARM, which will soon be catching up with 3rd PlanIt: http://scarm.info

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Andybrwn7]

Thank you for all the information, it looks like a try before you buy scenario so I will give them a go. This also includes Templot for 2 reasons, one is that it seems a very interesting debate about it and second because if it is a work in progress then let's help Martin get it to where he wants it.

[Vistisen]

That's a matter of opinion -- Templot is rather like Marmite to some folks.

 

What is a matter of fact though is that Templot and AnyRail are not alternatives. The download page for Templot has this notice, although it often seems that few visitors read it:

 

 

I have posted this information several time on RMweb but here it is again:

 

Templot is for designing handbuilt track.

 

Templot is TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for commercial ready-made track such as Peco, etc. It is not surprising that you have found it "outrageously unfriendly" if you have tried to use it for something for which it is not intended and does not work.

 

PLEASE DO NOT USE TEMPLOT FOR PECO TRACK.

 

For Peco track and similar use AnyRail, SCARM, 3rd PlanIt, CadRail, XTrackCad, Winrail, or any of several others but please not Templot.

 

On the other hand none of those are of much use in creating construction templates or layouts for handbuilt track.

 

If you don't like Templot the alternatives for handbuilt track are Trax3 and S21.

 

Apologies for the bold stuff but I have tried so many times to get this point across.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Quite I have used both, AnyRail is excellent with the best level of support for any software I have ever used. David who owns and deveolps software, often answers within minutes to questions in the anyrail forum. I have buit my current layout using it. But what we REALLY need is the ability to export a templot design for a handbuilt section of pointwork as an custom object that can be imported into an Anyrail design.

[martin_wynne]

But what we REALLY need is the ability to export a Templot design for a handbuilt section of pointwork as an custom object that can be imported into an Anyrail design.

 

David and I have discussed this. While in principle we would both be happy to do something, in practice the two programs are so different in design and intent that it is difficult to find any practical means of integration.

 

Some things can be done. For example an AnyRail trackplan can be exported as a PNG image file, and used as a background picture shape in Templot. The entire plan can then be printed for construction, like this:

 

Templot screenshot. Background image from AnyRail overlaid with a turnout in Templot. This could equally be a complex Templot formation of any size:

 

 

 

The printed construction template from Templot can include the AnyRail background. You could therefore use Templot to print your AnyRail track plans:

 

 

 

Templot already provides several export options -- DXF files for import into any CAD program, EMF metafiles, hi-resolution image files, PDF files. Unfortunately as far as I know AnyRail does not have import functions for any of these.

 

3rd PlanIt can import DXF files, so if you wanted to use a pick-and-place program for commercial track, which could also include tracks derived from Templot, it would be better to use 3rd PlanIt rather than AnyRail (as of this writing). 3rd PlanIt includes many track libraries such as Peco.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

If you don't like Templot the alternatives for handbuilt track are Trax3 and S21.

 

...

Put a search into 'Bing' for 'Trax3' and 'S21' neither company seems to have a web presence.

 

'Anyrail' specifically mentions on its web home page that it is suitable for P4 C&L and Exactoscale.

[martin_wynne]

Put a search into 'Bing' for 'Trax3' and 'S21' neither company seems to have a web presence.

 

'Anyrail' specifically mentions on its web home page that it is suitable for P4 C&L and Exactoscale.

 

Trax3 is here: http://www.noodlebooks.co.uk/product/view/2050

 

S21 is here: http://s21-modellgleis.de

 

AnyRail includes a library of track objects matching the straight printed templates from C&L and Exactoscale.

 

Handbuilt track is mostly about creating custom trackwork to fit a specific site -- curved turnouts, different switches and crossing angles, different lead lengths, contraflexure, complex junction layouts, etc. AnyRail isn't suitable to create construction templates for such things.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[PenrithBeacon]

... 

Handbuilt track is mostly about creating custom trackwork to fit a specific site -- curved turnouts, different switches and crossing angles, different lead lengths, contraflexure, complex junction layouts, etc. ...

Seems to be an occupation suitable for 21st Century monks

[sp1]

Seems to be an occupation suitable for 21st Century monks

Apologies to the OP for being off topic, but: if you are building a model 'railway' surely the track is an important part of that model? In fact, it wouldn't be a model railway without it, so why would you want to compromise that model by using what is effectively 'toy' track?

[Andy Reichert]

Seems to be an occupation suitable for 21st Century monks

 

That's probably more fun than just testing the output of 21st Century monks.

 

Andy

[PenrithBeacon]

Apologies to the OP for being off topic, but: if you are building a model 'railway' surely the track is an important part of that model? In fact, it wouldn't be a model railway without it, so why would you want to compromise that model by using what is effectively 'toy' track?

Like you I don't like 'toy track' something I thought I had made clear in post #13.

 

The photo below shows part of my stores cupboard:

 

 

In addition this file shows how far I got with Templot back in 2012:

 

Dinas_2012_04_21_1850_57.box

 

When I decide to make my layout I shall use Ian Rice's methods. They seem to be the only ones that are convincing.

[AndyID]

There is also something called RR-Track  http://www.rrtrack.com/

 

I know nothing about it!

[AndyID]

I should add that recently I used a combination of Anyrail and Templot. I used Anyrail to quickly sketch and play with different options and get a general idea of what would fit into the available space within the radius constraints I wanted. Then I produced a Templot version that allowed me to make the best use of the available space by using curved turnouts etc.

 

My layout has several levels and I found the Anyrail gradient feature to be quite useful.

[Andy Reichert]

Like you I don't like 'toy track' something I thought I had made clear in post #13.

 

The photo below shows part of my stores cupboard:

 

IMG_2873.JPG

 

In addition this file shows how far I got with Templot back in 2012:

 

Dinas_2012_04_21_1850_57.box

 

When I decide to make my layout I shall use Ian Rice's methods. They seem to be the only ones that are convincing.

 

Just don't follow any of the advice given in the Roque Bluffs article.

 

Andy

[hayfield]

It was my intention to use Templot to produce templates to use as a tool to produce hand made track. I wouldn't touch Peco etc with a bargepole.

 

No amount of shouting on your part will disguise the fact that your product is very unfriendly and is therefore unfit for purpose. During my career I was a Business Analyst and Acceptance Test Manager for 15 years so I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to specifying and testing software applications. I think Templot is one of the worst, if not quite the worst, piece of software I've ever come across and there is no way, absolutely no way, that Templot would or could have passed any professional testing regime.

 

David

 

Good morning and I hope you are keeping well. I do quite understand to some extent the initial problems some do have when starting to use Templot and must bow to Martins superior knowledge about other track planning software packages for those who use RTR track especially set track systems

 

But really anyone who wishes to use either EM or P4 standards making and printing off a turnout or crossing plan to which ever size is required is child's play (I am a complete numpty when it comes to computers)as it is automated. It is also very easy to be able to curve a turnout, crossing or plain piece of track to any radius you require.

 

The part which is slightly more difficult (but not hard) is joining one piece to another, this is a simple process easily learnt with the aid of a few tutorials on Templot club and the members are very helpful in assisting anyone who is having problems. Many types of crossing are now automated so clicks of a mouse is all that is needed. With Templot 2 slips are quite easy now to make, with 3 way crossings being one of the few things that takes a bit of understanding.

 

Templot is the same as any skill in model making, like making a chassis for a loco you have to invest time in learning simple skills/processes to end up with the result you require.

 

Anyway, do keep well and look forward to seeing you soon

[Jonboy]

As someone who's preferences (when having a model on the go, which I don't currently) are landscape and avoiding soldering at all costs, and is therefore quite happy with "Toy Track" (although Kato's pricing doesn't feel toy like ) I would recommend Anyrail as a great point and click tool that allows you to quickly plot out and plan and then post an image here for critique.

 

This then allows you to quickly get on with the processes of mangling wood, stripping screws, painting the dinner table and leaving small pieces of bodily tissue within your layout...

[fender]

where is that disagree button again?

 

how anyone can complain about Templot is just beyond my comprehension. I have used it very successfully having spent a couple of afternoons just messing around with it. had I spent the proper studying time it deserves I'm sure I would get exponentially more out in return.

 

maybe it's just me (no, on second though, it's definitely not!), but when I am faced with something complicated that I don't immediately understand, I assume that it is I who have to adapt and educate myself, not that everyone else has to adapt and spoon feed me with the information I am looking for. to do otherwise really is the height of folly and egocentricity, particularly with a gift to us all like Templot.

[davetheroad]

I am still using a somewhat ancient version of WinRail. Lots of fun if you don't mind toy track, actually the version i have allows you to design your own pointwork. It is not Templot but you can print out at real size.

[hayfield]

 

I disagree. You get far more out of Templot than you put in, but only after you have adjusted your thinking to what Templot is, what it does, and how it does it.

Well, if you must. But one cannot produce a curved turnout template by simply taking snips out of a straight paper template, as the resulting crossing vee will be too sharp and derailments will ensue. Even if all you do is to produce curved turnout templates, Templot is useful - and free.

Incidentally, his name is Iain, not Ian.

 

I have said it before, and may say it again, but the essence of Templot is in the use of pegs, and notches. All templates have at least two pegs: a rail joint, peg 1, which is the reference point for timber spacing, etc, and a datum point (0), which is simply the other end of the template leading up to peg 1. You can only have one turnout (or partial turnout) in a template, as it starts at peg 1 and heads off to the other side of the peg from peg 0. There are many other pegs, for example (moving along the turnout) peg 2, the start of the point blades, peg 3 for the intersection point of the track centre lines (extended from the crossing vee), peg 4 for the crossing vee, peg 5 on the turnout route is where a crossover connects to another template's peg 5, peg 6 is the end of the turnout (curved) route, and where another template would join to form the branch route, and peg 9 is the end of the template, which can be some distance away. There are many other peg positions, but these will do for starters. You can also move the peg along the centre line, along rails, etc: important to know, but not important at this stage to know how.

 

A turnout may not have any track leading into it, in case peg 0 sits over peg 1 but they are still distinct, and plain track does not have peg 9.

Peg 0 serves as a reference point for the template, on the overall "drawing pad", recording all the information that the program needs, such as x-y position, direction, radius, etc, to "know" where to locate the template.

 

One peg will be active at any one time: it serves as the reference point for functions. For example, if you are on peg 1 on a turnout template, and use F3, you will not move the turnout but you will add (or remove, depending on mouse direction) extra plain track to the front of the turnout. If you use F4 you will alter the overall length of the turnout, but as peg 1 is active, you will only add or subtract length from this peg. If you make peg 0 active, then F3 puts track between pegs 0 and 1 (moving peg 1 and the whole turnout), and F4 between pegs 1 and 9 (leaving peg 1 where it was).

 

When you join templates, you join the active peg of your current template to a "notch" on the trackpad. The notch can be anywhere, but usually it will be a peg on another template, for example the beginning or end of another template. To do this you put a notch (using / ) under your previous template before you save it to the background (ctrl-v). Or you can simply put a notch under another template using mouse functions. You then join your template onto the notch with the * key, or via mouse options. Many of the functions, for example making a crossover or a branch track, will do the notching and joining as part of the process of fulfilling their function.

 

It took me a while to understand all that, but once I was used to it, I started to discover more and more I could do with it - want a semi-outside single slip (not as incorrectly described by Iain Rice, he was referring to an outside single slip in his book) with curves on both routes? Well, if you must, but yes, it is possible well within an hour, and much more accurate that drawing it from scratch (which takes a lot longer if you draw in all the timbers. Don't ask me how I know...)

 

Apologies to Martin for any errors in terminology (PM me, Martin, and I will correct things later in the day when I get back in from a day out) but essentially, until you have got our head around the above, all you can really do is create simple templates.

 

It is worth remembering that Templot is not a piece of layout design software. It is an incredibly powerful way of (originally) designing bespoke turnout templates to suit specific and often complicated requirements. The fact that many of us happily use Templot as the basis for layout design reflects its massive potential and wide capabilities.

 

Criticising it or dismissing it without understanding the basic principles of how it works seems to be a regular gripe, sadly, but those of us prepared to put in a little effort have been rewarded with hundreds of hours of fun.

 

One word of warning: it is very easy to spend a lot of enjoyable time playing with Templot. Fun, passes time and perfectly acceptable, but it doesn't build the track for you!

 

 

I find the pegs and notches quite difficult to understand, but somehow I do manage to come up with an end product. I guess if I spend the time to understand these more it may become easier to use. But you are very right about getting out something depends on putting some learning in. However there are some very good short cuts that are so easy to use. As for curved track work, I thought cutting up straight ones went out with the arc

[Guest 40-something]

I tried Templot but just couldn't get on with, however I couldn't belittle it, it is a fantastic piece of software and I know a good many folk who use it successfully. If I had more free time I would have persevered with it.

 

I ended up using Anyrail, taking advantage of the C&L templates and Peco flexi.

[PhilEakins]

 

As for curved track work, I thought cutting up straight ones went out with the arc

 

Brilliant - I wish I'd though of that!

 

Phil

 

PS I've been using Templot since it was a bought product - I've never regretted buying it and Martin's latest improvements are a bonus.