HST buffets

[sub39h]

Hi guys,

 

I asked a similar question regarding LHCS buffets back in Nov 14. I am an Eastern Region modeller, focusing on c1990. I am wanting some further information regarding the different buffets available on HSTs and their uses. 

 

As I understand it, there are at least 6 different kitchen/buffet coaches available:

 

4 large window

 

TRUB

TRFK

TRUK

TRSB (?)

 

3 large window

 

TRSB

TRFB

 

 

I have recently acquired Hornby's R4676 as I have seen an XC set from 1989 which had Swallow power cars but with a rake of blue/grey coaches (except one of the TFOs) so I thought this would introduce some variation to the remainder of my HST fleet, which are all Lima Swallow and Exec coaches. (The TGS and buffet - called a "TRSB" by Hornby are from the old Lima tooling anyway.) I thought all the TRSBs were the 3 window variety. Does this mean the coach that Hornby have produced is a TRUB? What are the external differences between the TRUB and the TRUK/TRFK? Finally, if it is an unclassified coach, does the seating area face towards first class or standard class or was there no convention?

 

Thanks 

[Flood]

Right then in total five separate types of Mk3 style buffet/restaurant were made for BR.

 

Originally there were only two: TRSB and TRUK.

 

These both had four passenger windows and they were used on the prototype HST set and, with small variations, the original production HST sets on the Western and the Eastern .

 

Not long into the HSTs lives BR realised that this amount of catering on the Western Region sets was too much and a new coach was designed, the TRUB. This had only three passenger windows as it incorporated a buffet counter but also a larger kitchen area than the TRSB.

 

In 1979 the loco hauled Mk3a buffets were made, these were classified RUB and are externally identical to TRUB stock accept the loco hauled coaches had buffers.

 

By 1985 most of the HST sets had only TRSB or TRUB trailers. Just to confuse the issue some of the TRSBs were given first class seating on the Western Region and reclassified TRB and the Eastern Region TRUB trailers were reclassified as first class becoming TRFB.

 

By 1987 only two Eastern Region sets had TRUK trailers and these had been reclassified as TRFK. These were the Tees-Tyne Pullman and the Yorkshire Pullman. Nearly all the other TRUK trailers, along with all the RUB loco hauled stock and a large number of first class loco hauled stock were converted to RFM loco hauled coaches. This is the coach originally marketed by Hornby for the Wrexham and Shropshire rakes, for which it was reasonably correct, and now as a TRSB, for which it is rather incorrect. All RFM coaches have four windows in the passenger area but as they came from three different builds they have variations in the restaurant area and the roof vents.

 

Two other conversions took place. 40319 became 40619 a TRFM. A modular catering coach for the Master Cutler HST set, externally it remained identical to a TRFB. 40513 was converted to the Inter-City Executive saloon, later designated a lounge first. Externally it remained identical to a TRFK.

 

To summarise:

 

TRSB (some became TRB): 4 passenger windows

TRUK, reclassified TRFK or converted: 4 windows

TRUB, reclassified TRFB: 3 windows

RUB: 3 windows - all later converted

RFM: 4 windows

 

That takes you up to about the end of BR, after that is someone else's domain.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Flood

[sub39h]

As always, your coaching knowledge astounds me Flood! So what do I have to do to my bastardised RFM to make it closer to a TRSB? So were there no 3 window TRSBs then? What is the coach that Hornby have released as part of the new Executive livery coaches? 

Edited March 11, 2015 by sub39h

[Flood]

Yes, there were no 3 window TRSB trailers.

 

The coach that Hornby have in the new executive rakes is a TRUB - basically a TRFB without the first class stripe. Originally the Western Region kept them as unclassified but sometime 1988/1989 they followed suit with the Eastern and reclassified them as first class.

 

Between the TRSB and a RFM the two photos below will help. The narrow windows in the catering area are nearer the centre on an RFM and they are half depth and not a third depth. This also means that there is one less small window on the RFM. The HST trailer, strictly speaking, had been changed to a TRB from a TRSB but externally there was no difference.

 

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p746052712/h1609070c#h1609070c

 

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h1c071419#h1c071419

 

A long hard look through Dennis Taylor's site reveals all sorts of gems.

 

One other thing. The Hornby TRSB states Restaurant-Buffet 125 on the side, TRSB trailers always carried Buffet-Bar 125 instead!

Edited March 11, 2015 by Flood

[sub39h]

Hmm the differences are quite large then. That's disappointing. Oh well I wanted a coach to repaint into Swallow livery so i had an RFM so I might use this one. I'll use one of my Lima TRFBs to turn into a TRSB.

 

So did the seating area in a TRSB face standard class then?

 

Finally does anyone have any drawings of the coach please so I have dimensions for its conversion?

 

Thanks for your help!

Edited March 12, 2015 by sub39h

[Flood]

I recall the seating area in the buffets virtually always faced first class but it appears TRSBs were more random. If you look at the underframe boxes on Mk3 stock they are different on each side and rakes were formed with the boxes along the whole length being identical. As the TGS always had the luggage area by the power car this meant that catering seating nearly always (and I mean 99% of the time) faced first class.

 

The coaches could be coupled either way and if a spare buffet was needed and was the other way round it would be added to a set (it would otherwise have needed to be turned on a turntable or at a triangle) but HSTs were normally kept as fixed sets which had identical underframe sides matching.

 

The BR diagram for the TRSB was GK202. It is available with all the other HST drawings in the book of DEMU diagrams on the Barrowmore site (prototype pages): http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

As it is free to download I think I can post a copy of that drawing on here (click to enlarge).

 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Flood

[sub39h]

That's brilliant! Thanks so much again Flood. Looks like the easiest thing to do would be to use this coach as the basis for the TRSB - it's only the counter/kitchen area that's wrong. I could cut this area out and replace it with the same from a TRFB and that looks like it'll get me a true TRSB. 

 

Looks like I'll have to find another Hornby 4 window buffet for my RFM then - or just wait until Hornby release one in Swallow which, if Hornby have any sense, can't be too long now given that Bachmann are doing a Class 90.

 

Just out of interest, why were the rakes organised such that the underframes all faced the same way? Was there any reason or did the powers that be have OCD? I've just noticed as well that when I try and do as you suggest in my rake and have all the underframes facing the same way, the seating area on the "TRSB" is facing standard class... one of the chassis must be the wrong way around! (Edit: from referring to the photos you've kindly linked above, it looks like the chassis on the "TRSB" is the wrong way around. Given how much of a pig Lima Mk3s are to take apart I'm not looking forward to sorting that out!) 

Edited March 12, 2015 by sub39h

[Flood]

Have a look at Dennis' photos, is the underframe on the correct way round on the model? The cut out area with handle (left hand hand of underframe boxes on one side) should be under the passenger area on both the buffet and TGS. One of them may be wrong.

 

TGS on one side: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p746052712/h1eac59b4#h1eac59b4

 

TGS on the other: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p746052712/h1eac59b4#h12340078

 

I could ask Glenn why the underframes usually faced the same way, he might remember.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Flood

[sub39h]

Thanks again Flood. Before you replied I actually referred to photos of the TRSB and it looks like that's the one with the error. I'm impressed that Hornby (or what is Lima?) went through the effort of making different mouldings for the underframe tho. Shame they couldn't get the bogies right as well. 

[jonny777]

The seating area virtually always faced first class in the buffets. If you look at the underframe boxes on Mk3 stock they are different on each side and rakes were formed with the boxes along the whole length being identical. As the TGS always had the luggage area by the power car this meant that catering seating nearly always (and I mean 99% of the time) faced first class.

 

The coaches could be coupled either way and if a spare buffet was needed and was the other way round it would be added to a set (it would otherwise have needed to be turned on a turntable or at a triangle) but HSTs were normally kept as fixed sets which had identical underframe sides matching.

 

The BR diagram for the TRSB was GK202. It is available with all the other HST drawings in the book of DEMU diagrams on the Barrowmore site (prototype pages): http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

As it is free to download I think I can post a copy of that drawing on here (click to enlarge).

 

TRSB diagram.jpg

 

 

Are you sure this was correct for early WR formations?

 

I have a vague memory of it being the other way around in the late 1970s/early 80s (seating facing 2nd class) and have been looking through my photos, although I don't have that many showing the whole train.

 

However, here is one at Cardiff in 1980 -

 

 

And here is a rather dodgy long lens photo at from Paddington in Sep 1976, originally taken to have a Western and HST in the same photo.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2015 by jonny777

[Flood]

Thanks for the photo Jonny.

 

I've had a quick look through some Western Region and Eastern Region photos from 1980 backwards and variations in those early years occurred quite regularly.

 

The Western first received TGS stock in April 1980 (according to the Railway Observer) and initially these would have been merely swapped for another Trailer Second. Looking at your photo the underframes all face the same way at the near end. I can't tell whether the other end has a TGS or not.

 

Originally the Eastern Region separated their TRSB and TRUK trailers in the rake but from about 1980/81 (I think) they placed the two catering vehicles together so that was another variation.

 

I'm guessing that once the TGS stock had all been added and rakes passed through works then that is when they regularly ran with the passenger area towards first class, probably 1981 onwards.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Flood

[deltic79]

Plus there's the XC rakes that ran over the ECML too,, north of Donny.

 

From memory these ran with a single TF coupled to a TRSB (with seating facing the TS).

 

I'm not sure at which end the TF was generally positioned though (i.e. North or South) or whether the sets were frequently reversed on route so there was no consistency.

[The Stationmaster]

The most important thing about original HST catering - the burgers, absolutely brilliant and a great shame they didn't remain on the menu for too long.

 

Best thing about HST catering now - FGW's full English (or Welsh) breakfast, lovely way to go from Reading to South Wales.

 

Vehicle types - others have said it all

[jonny777]

I think there is a TGS on the 1980 CF photo.

 

I have magnified the original scan and it seems there are only 7 windows in the last carriage.

 

 

Have a look and see what you think -

 

 

[sub39h]

Plus there's the XC rakes that ran over the ECML too,, north of Donny.

 

From memory these ran with a single TF coupled to a TRSB (with seating facing the TS).

 

I'm not sure at which end the TF was generally positioned though (i.e. North or South) or whether the sets were frequently reversed on route so there was no consistency.

 

Funnily enough I was thinking that maybe this would be an XC set. I have made a buffered HST from a Grand Central chassis and cutting the valance off a Swallow power car. It's been renumbered to 43123. I just need to paint the buffer beam red and it'll be finished. When this isn't running with my 91 and Mk3s, it'll be on the XC service because I believe they transferred to XC duties once their days as a surrogate DVT were over? 

Edited March 12, 2015 by sub39h

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Reason why underframes were arranged same sided in a rake was to enable a crew to isolate brakes easily - no need to crawl under a train you just walk down the correct side and if even luckier this would be cess side and no next to the other running line !

 

It was necessary to reform a couple of XC HST sets after conversions at Wabtec as this little bit of history was lost on the new boys!  It great being a dinosaur!! 

HST buffets and the variations to the menu is a book waiting to be penned ...

Burgers and NCR tills and Keg bitter all part of the experience, tills broke with vibration and nobody cleaned the beer lines ! to say nothing of the mega head available. Real food cooked onboard is a skill dying on the real railway !

 

Robert     

[Flood]

Plus there's the XC rakes that ran over the ECML too,, north of Donny.

 

From memory these ran with a single TF coupled to a TRSB (with seating facing the TS).

 

I'm not sure at which end the TF was generally positioned though (i.e. North or South) or whether the sets were frequently reversed on route so there was no consistency.

I thought the vast majority I remember had the seating towards first class but the mind can play tricks. I'd also forgotten that the buffet on a Mk3 is not at the seating end but the other end.

 

I've just checked Dennis Taylor's photos again, TRSB coaches are shown either way round. Always best to check my facts!!!

Edited March 12, 2015 by Flood

[Siberian Snooper]

Cross Country HST's regularly reversed at Gloucester in the early days, I'm not sure when the Gloucester stop was dropped in favour of Cheltenham.

[jonny777]

It is a bit of a minefield.

 

Here is one of the early East Coast formations which I always took to be standard, but maybe I am jumping to conclusions.

 

 

(Ooops, best to include the photo)

 

 

Edited March 12, 2015 by jonny777

[keefer]

The twin dining sets were like that at first, kitchen car next to the first class but with the buffet car 'inside' the second class coaches. Not sure when they changed it to having the two dining coaches together, with the 2 seating sections adjoining.

EDIT : flood mentions this earlier on as happening around 1980/81

Edited March 12, 2015 by keefer

[sub39h]

Thanks for everyone's input. This is turning into a really useful and informative thread.

 

Does anyone have a clear shot of the roof of the TRSB? I don't think Hornby's vents are right either! Also does anyone know if the windows were tinted or not on the TRSB? It's difficult to tell from the photos

Edited March 13, 2015 by sub39h

[keefer]

I'd have thought the windows would be the same tinted ones as on other Mk 3s

[keefer]

I thought the vast majority I remember had the seating towards first class but the mind can play tricks. I'd also forgotten that the buffet on a Mk3 is not at the seating end but the other end.

 

I've just checked Dennis Taylor's photos again, TRSB coaches are shown either way round. Always best to check my facts!!!

I think the intention was to have the TRSB seating facing the 2nd class coaches,

1) as the seating was 'normal' 2nd class, not specifically for dining

2) so those in 1st didn't have to go through 2nd to get to the buffet.

 

As an aside, I believe the change from unclassified to 1st class seating in the other types of coach was so that they weren't hogged by 2nd class passengers trying to get a comfier seat for the whole journey!

[sub39h]

I'd have thought the windows would be the same tinted ones as on other Mk 3s

I thought only first class was tinted?

[stewartingram]

I've just looked through my surplus stock box. In there are the following related items:

 

Jouef Buffet (W40301), full length body unlike early Hornby. 3x large windows, 5x small in corridor side.

Jouef !st class x2, again full length.

Hornby (early) power car motored.

Hornby (early) power car un-motored.

 

All in blue/grey livery, unboxed, fair condition though a tad scratched finish. Open to reasonable offers in anyone needs them.

 

Stewart

Edited March 14, 2015 by stewartingram