Brighton Belle, were they used "off route" or rail tours

[TravisM]

Thinking of getting a blue Hornby Brighton Belle set and wondered if they ever wandered off route, used on rail tours or special events?

 

Julian Sprott

[Gwiwer]

Yes.

 

Apart from the final day when a railtour was run using one unit and took it to the Mid Sussex line there were other tours in the weeks leading up to their withdrawal.

 

There were also occasional private charters and at times timetabled diversions from Victoria to London Bridge due to engineering works.  It was normal however to cancel the entire non-stop (as it then was) service when the route was blocked for any sort of track work; the Belle did not normally divert via Lewes or the Mid Sussex (Arun Valley) line.  There may have been emergency diversions via the Mid-Sussex line if the train was trapped the wrong side of an unplanned blockage such as a derailment.  The routing would have been to reverse at Ford for a single unit or via Littlehampton for two units coupled as a 10-car train is too long to shunt at Ford.

 

Going back to their umber / cream days there were also timetabled workings from Victoria to Eastbourne on a Sunday and a short-lived "Regency Belle" London - Brighton service which would today be considered a charter as it wasn't a public service in the walk-up-and-go sense.

 

With only three units and two always required for the timetabled service their use on other routes and for non-timetable services was very limited.  To charter a unit and then find one wasn't available on the day would have meant cutting the service train from 10 to 5 cars or coupling a 4Cor unit to the remaining 5Bel which certainly happened on some occasions.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Gwiwer

[bécasse]

There was a working to Eastbourne on Sundays, known colloquially as the Eastbourne Sunday Pullman. I am not certain about the start and finish dates, but it was certainly running during part of the 1950s.

 

There were odd occasions when engineering works or other problems meant that London Bridge was used as the London terminal instead of Victoria. Also there would have been diversions via Redhill instead of the Quarry Line, in the suburban area via West Norwood and via the low level instead of high level lines between Clapham Junction and Victoria. It is possible that there may have been a very occasional diversion via West Norwood or Streatham, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill, and an outside possibility in the event of an emergency occurring would have been via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham and then either via Three Bridges (double reversal) or Ford/Littlehampton, Hove and (probably) Preston Park. The train crews would have known all these routes except Tulse Hill-Herne Hill-Victoria.

[Brake Compo]

Kinder in Pullman Cars on the Southern 1875-1972 quotes a start date for the Eastbourne Pullman Limited of 31 May 1948.  Will look in other sources to see if I can find an end date.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Brake Compo

[Brake Compo]

Right, have been consulting Ford's recent Pullman Profile No. 4: The Brighton Belle & Southern Electric Pullmans.  Page 93 gives details of 6 car formation that "ran on several inspection trips, including one over the Western Section to Portsmouth in readiness of a trip for the Sixth Imperial Press Conference on 28 June" (1947). 

 

He gives a date of 6 June for the commencement of the Eastbourne Pullman Limited -  a week after that quoted by Kinder, and a service withdrawal date of 15 September 1957. 

[The Bigbee Line]

I can remember seeing the Brighton Belle pass on the line between Brighton and Falmer when I was at School near Falmer. I can't remember how many cars, but think it was in Umber and Cream.

 

There is a picture of the Belle operating as a 9 car in Umber and Cream.

[Gwiwer]

The Brighton Belle units were 5-car.

 

There was one very brief period when one ran as a 4-car with one under repair and that would have given rise to a 9-car train when coupled with another unit.

 

Those units have never run as 6-car and I therefore am puzzled by the reference to such a unit unless it is under the overall umbrella of "Southern Electric Pullmans" and the reference is to a 6Pul unit.  Those contained five non-Pullman green and one umber Pullman cars.

 

Further reading: "The Brighton Belle" (Stephen Grant and Simon Jeffs) pub. Southern Electric Group and available here http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/sales/segsaleswin02.html

[Brake Compo]

Not according to Ford, who gives the Summer '47 formation of 3051 as 88 & 89, pulling Doris, Hazel, Gwen & Mona.  Don't forget that this was before the official resumption of the Belle that Autumn, and at a time when shortages in the economy were rife and may have simply reflected what the Pullman Car Co was able to get running at the time, given that they had be laid up for five years (coated all over with grey paint from one report that I have read) and 3052 was badly damaged. 

[Gwiwer]

Unit 3052 was standing in Victoria's platform 17 in October 1940 when struck by a near-direct hit bomb which wrecked motor Car No. 90 and the Pullman Car Company offices.

 

The coaches were then all stored in wartime grey livery.  They were noted at various times at Epsom, Leatherhead and even in Devon.  

 

Car 90 was rebuilt and the public service restored in 1946 (not 1947) though with only two units available until 3052 was fixed.  The formation most often used in the 1946-7 period was of one 5Bel unit coupled with one 6Pul unit to give six Pullman cars in a train.

 

At this distance from events it will be hard to prove one way or the other if a six-car Belle actually did run as clearly sources differ but only Ford seems to suggest it.  The units did have more than enough power installed to operate in six-car formation however.

[talisman56]

In the 50s and 60s 3052 was the 'chosen one' when TPTB decided that a BEL unit would be the chosen to transport various members of Royalty (up to and including HRH the Queen) to various functions, including race days and Portsmouth Naval Reviews.

 

One example reported below:

 

http://www.guildford-dragon.com/2014/10/30/working-on-the-railway-by-bob-hind-and-his-award-winning-staff-magazine/royal-train-at-woking-1953-robert-hind/

[TravisM]

I assume that the electrical equipment and driving controls were very similar to other Southern Railway built units, so could they could travel anywhere on the 3rd rail Southern Region network.

 

Julian Sprott

[Gwiwer]

I assume that the electrical equipment and driving controls were very similar to other Southern Railway built units, so could they could travel anywhere on the 3rd rail Southern Region network.

 

Julian Sprott

 

Identical, for practical purposes, to other main line units of the day such as 6Pul, 6Pan, 6Cit.   Remember there wasn't as much electrified territory when the units were built though it expanded over their lifetime.  They were not permitted on the 750V Western Section electrified tracks of the Bournemouth line and were out-of-gauge on the much of the South Eastern section which has some slightly tighter clearances.  

[melmerby]

The Brighton Belle units were 5-car.

 

 

 

Those units have never run as 6-car and I therefore am puzzled by the reference to such a unit unless it is under the overall umbrella of "Southern Electric Pullmans" and the reference is to a 6Pul unit.  Those contained five non-Pullman green and one umber Pullman cars.

Post removed due to duplication of info!

 

Keith

Edited May 11, 2015 by melmerby

[talisman56]

At this distance from events it will be hard to prove one way or the other if a six-car Belle actually did run as clearly sources differ but only Ford seems to suggest it.  The units did have more than enough power installed to operate in six-car formation however.

 

Grant and Jeffs ("The Brighton Belle") also mention that 3051 ran as a 6-car for a short period in October 1946 (Chapter 10, P36)

David Brown also mentions the temporary 6-BEL in Southern Electric Vol.2 (Chapter 5 p138)

 

Neither of these mention Ford or each other in the relevant Bibliography and Sources to these look like two more independent references to the '6-car Belle' discussion...

Edited May 11, 2015 by talisman56

[jonny777]

The "short period" mentioned above may have just been one day.

 

I have looked through 1946/7 Railway Observers and found only this quote in the August 1947 edition.

 

"On 7/7/47, the Brighton Belle unit 3051 was run as a six-car unit, but has since reverted to its normal five-car formation."

[melmerby]

The "short period" mentioned above may have just been one day.

 

I have looked through 1946/7 Railway Observers and found only this quote in the August 1947 edition.

 

"On 7/7/47, the Brighton Belle unit 3051 was run as a six-car unit, but has since reverted to its normal five-car formation."

As the different dates quoted by the various sources cover approximately a nine month (Oct 46 - Jul 47) period it suggests it was more than just one day.

 

Keith

 

EDIT it is possible if they were short of a power car a six car unit could be made up as an interim measure using the available trailers but maybe a 7 car set would have been too many.

Edited May 12, 2015 by melmerby

[jonny777]

Kinder in Pullman Cars on the Southern 1875-1972 quotes a start date for the Eastbourne Pullman Limited of 31 May 1948.  Will look in other sources to see if I can find an end date.

 

 

The August 1948 RO states, "A new all-Pullman electric train was introduced on the Southern Region on Sunday, 6/6/48, booked to run non-stop between Victoria to (sic) Eastbourne on Sundays only. The down trip leaves Victoria at 10-40 a.m. and the return train leaves Eastbourne at 5-45 p.m. The train is allowed 80 minutes for the 66 miles and is formed of one of the three "BEL" units.

[Gwiwer]

"Week commencing" 31/05/48 (which was a Monday) produces an actual start date for operation of Sunday 06/06/48.  Both dates agree.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not a diversion, I seem to recall that there was (in the 70s) an up working in the morning rush hour which went to London Bridge. It then worked ecs round the South London line to Victoria to form part of the daytime off-peak service.

 

Presumably there would have been a balancing down working for the evening rush hour.

 

It may have been experimental and not lasted very long.

[Gwiwer]

Not a diversion, I seem to recall that there was (in the 70s) an up working in the morning rush hour which went to London Bridge. It then worked ecs round the South London line to Victoria to form part of the daytime off-peak service.

 

Presumably there would have been a balancing down working for the evening rush hour.

 

It may have been experimental and not lasted very long.

 

I am always open to correction but I don't recall this ever being done on a regular basis.  It might have happened once off as an emergency diversion.  I'm not sure about the Pullman cars being cleared for gauge or weight on the SLL though they probably were.

 

The Brighton Belle has always AFAIK run to and from Victoria under normal circumstances and for many years had a dedicated platform there (and at Brighton) as well with decorative arches over the ticket barriers.  Despite that it only ran three or four trips a day.

 

What there was - but a long time before the 1970s - was the City Limited which was formed of two 6Cit units between Brighton and London Bridge running up in the morning and back in the evening peaks.  Those units had more first class than third (later second) specifically for business workings but no Pullman cars.  There were also morning up and evening down peak workings to and from London Bridge by 6Pul units which contained a single Pullman car apiece; these were usually paired with a 6Pan rather than running paired and formed the better business trains from the west and east Sussex coastal routes.  

 

I cannot currently locate the carriage working diagrams which were published some years ago listing the 6Cit workings but I believe they did venture around the SLL to and from Victoria and Peckham Rye shed for berthing and balance working purposes.  

[Christopher125]

I am not sure if anybody saw the article in either the railway magazine or heritage railway magazine but when it was announced that the Brighton Belle unit would be returned to main line running they hoped to purchase a 6th coach ( not sure of the name ) and the trust that is restoring the unit to main line running conditions and safety case is intending to run the unit as a 6bel once all work and testing is completed and the relevant companies are satisfied with the work done.

They do have 6 vehicles lined up, the 5 at Barrow Hill and Doris at Horsted Keynes - pages 41-45 of the latest Pullman & CIWL News has some photos of the progress being made, as well as news of an upcoming event at Waterloo and further TV appearances.

 

Chris

Edited May 17, 2015 by Christopher125

[robertcwp]

Here are a couple of shots of units off their normal route:

 

5-BEL_Elephant_Blackfriars-Eastbourne_Special_4-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

5-BEL_3051-3053_ClaphamHighStreet_Victoria-DoverMarine_private-special_7-11-60 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

In 1969, there were scheduled diversions to London Bridge on account of engineering works at Victoria, so there are photos around of the Belle at London Bridge.

 

Here's one diverted via Redhill due to M25 construction:

5-BEL_3052-3053_Merstham_1100-Vic-Bton_12-2-72 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Jason P]

I have a question about the roofboards.  It appears that in the '60s only one roofboard was carried, I assume this was "Brighton Belle" as opposed to "Victoria-Brighton"?  Looking at various photos the single roofboard appears to be carried in either the left or right-hand position as per photos in previous posts.  Was the position purely random?

[Metropolitan H]

I can also confirm that one unit ran on a tour that took it through Virginia Water station - in the Blue / Grey years - turning left for Chertsey etc.. I can't remember the date, but Brother went to watch it go through and took a photograph.

 

Regards

Chris H

[bécasse]

I have a question about the roofboards.  It appears that in the '60s only one roofboard was carried, I assume this was "Brighton Belle" as opposed to "Victoria-Brighton"?  Looking at various photos the single roofboard appears to be carried in either the left or right-hand position as per photos in previous posts.  Was the position purely random?

 

It wasn't just in the 1960s that a single roof board each side per carriage was carried as perusal of available photographs suggests that this practice applied pre-war as well. Indeed, there is a photograph of a Southern Belle working of a 5-PUL with only single roof boards (which presumably read "SOUTHERN BELLE"). I would suggest that one possibility is that paired roof boards were introduced with the restored service after WWII but were eventually reduced back to a single board simply because of the amount of work involved in removing and replacing them. This would have been required each week for the unit(s) which worked to Eastbourne on a Sunday. Annoyingly, I can remember seeing the Sunday train arrive at Eastbourne, probably in 1956, but have no recollection whatsoever of what roof boards, if any, it was carrying.

Edited December 13, 2015 by bécasse