Brighton Belle, were they used "off route" or rail tours

[number6]

If you model the Eastbourne Pullman don't to forget to pull the blinds down on the last two cars as it was often very lightly loaded - and it was easier to staff just a few of the cars in a single unit. There is a photo of such a unit north of Lewes in the Pullman Profile No 4 by Anthony Ford. Saves painting the carpets the correct design... 

[Nearholmer]

I will attempt to ferret-out and scan a print that I was given in the 1970s of BELs in umber livery on the SE Division. I'm not sure which station it shows, but I think it is on the four-track section between London and Orpington, working Down.

 

K

[Nick Holliday]

My ever-thoughtful wife picked up some old "Railway Magazines" at a charity shop, and in one of them, December 1960, a similar question was posed - "Brighton Belle" Sets at Waterloo, and the answer was:

 

"It was suggested in our November notes and news that the "Brighton Belle" Pullman electric set used to convey a party from Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour on September 6, (presumably 1960) in connection with the launching at Cowes of the steamer Sarnia, was probably the first visit to the Western Section of the Southern Region of this type of train.  However Mr. Alan M. Teatherton points out that a similar set was provided for the official party at the launching of the sister ship Caesarea on January 29 of this year (1960 again?).  Mr. H. C. Hughes writes that a "Brighton Belle" set was used to convey the Queen (then Princess Elizabeth) from Waterloo to Portsmouth on July 6, 1951."

 

(I do like the formality of the use of Mr. and middle initials - there cannot have been many Teathertons lining up to contribute!)

[Oldddudders]

There was a working to Eastbourne on Sundays, known colloquially as the Eastbourne Sunday Pullman. I am not certain about the start and finish dates, but it was certainly running during part of the 1950s.

 

There were odd occasions when engineering works or other problems meant that London Bridge was used as the London terminal instead of Victoria. Also there would have been diversions via Redhill instead of the Quarry Line, in the suburban area via West Norwood and via the low level instead of high level lines between Clapham Junction and Victoria. It is possible that there may have been a very occasional diversion via West Norwood or Streatham, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill, and an outside possibility in the event of an emergency occurring would have been via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham and then either via Three Bridges (double reversal) or Ford/Littlehampton, Hove and (probably) Preston Park. The train crews would have known all these routes except Tulse Hill-Herne Hill-Victoria.

Major bridgeworks between Pouparts Junction and Battersea Park in April 1969 caused Victoria Central to have a very thin service for the weekend, ISTR. The Belle would have been an obvious candidate for diversion.

 

As for diversion via Crystal Palace, I cannot confirm any planned diversion, but do recall the up Belle finding its way thus on one occasion early in 1969 due to a wrong description, probably from South Croydon to East Croydon I should think. The error wasn't reported directly, and it was Crystal Palace A that rather blew the gaff on this episode by telling Control cheerfully as it passed. I can imagine Dave Cox got some suitable advice from colleagues on that one....

[Joseph_Pestell]

Clearing out various stuff from my parents' house last week, I came across a set of 5 postcards by Pamlin Prints issued in 1972 to commemorate the last run of the Brighton Belle (20p for five postcards).

 

M811 is entitled "The 'Belle' in a strange place". Carrying headcode 5, it is passing through a station with four tracks but platforms only on the two outside tracks (can't tell if a four-track railway or platform loops).

 

I would guess it is on the New Cross Gate - Norwood Jct line but the platform shelter on one platform looks a bit small for a suburban station and the background has only trees rather than any buildings.

[Gwiwer]

5 referred to London Bridge - Brighton via the Quarry Line fast" but making some intermediate stops.  The non-stop equivalent was 3.  The Belle normally showed 4 when working from and to Victoria but the 23.00 down train which called at Haywards Heath showed 6 due to the extra stop. If that working ran from London Bridge then it would show 5 but it was late at night.  In daylight there must have been some other unusual reason for such a working.

 

The description of the station suggests it might be Anerley, Penge West or possibly Brockley, all on the New Cross Gate - Norwood Junction section and all resembling rural rather than inner suburban stations in appearance.

[Guest]

Clearing out various stuff from my parents' house last week, I came across a set of 5 postcards by Pamlin Prints issued in 1972 to commemorate the last run of the Brighton Belle (20p for five postcards).

 

M811 is entitled "The 'Belle' in a strange place". Carrying headcode 5, it is passing through a station with four tracks but platforms only on the two outside tracks (can't tell if a four-track railway or platform loops).

 

I would guess it is on the New Cross Gate - Norwood Jct line but the platform shelter on one platform looks a bit small for a suburban station and the background has only trees rather than any buildings.

 

That particular postcard is on ebay at the moment. Station certainly looks familiar, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pp0437-Brighton-Belle-Train-no-3052-in-1960-Pamlin-postcard-/361292153288

[Nearholmer]

I've seen the "Belle in a strangle place" picture before, and, although I wouldn't claim absolute certainty, I think it is Honor Oak Park, looking in the opposite direction from the one below.

 

If you read "The Adventure of the Norwood Builder", you will find out all about rail joints on this line.

 

K

Edited February 4, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

I've seen the "Belle in a strangle place" picture before, and, although I wouldn't claim absolute certainty, I think it is Honor Oak Park, looking in the opposite direction from the one below.

 

If you read "The Adventure of the Norwood Builder", you will find out all about rail joints on this line.

 

K

 

Yes, I think you are right.

[Joseph_Pestell]

That particular postcard is on ebay at the moment. Station certainly looks familiar, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pp0437-Brighton-Belle-Train-no-3052-in-1960-Pamlin-postcard-/361292153288

 

4p in 1972, £3.00 now. I wish I had invested in more Pamlin postcards!

[crompton 33]

If you scroll down there is a photo of the Brighton belle l in Eastbourne Station.   Link        http://picssr.com/photos/28976636@N07/interesting/page6?nsid=28976636@N07

Edited December 30, 2016 by crompton 33

[Re6/6]

This may be of interest, though this is 'on route'. Don't know about the other one.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5500077193/in/photolist-9o2kk8 

 

A good excuse to run an 'oddity'!

 

Attributed to Gwiwer of this parish.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Re6/6

[Gwiwer]

This may be of interest, though this is 'on route'. Don't know about the other one.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5500077193/in/photolist-9o2kk8 

 

A good excuse to run an 'oddity'!

 

5BEL + 4COR.jpg

 

 

My image I believe.  May I ask where it was sourced from?

 

[Guest]

I have most definitely seen that image before, so assuming it's not plastered all over Google Images when searching for "Brighton Belle" I would hazard a guess and say it's not the first time it's appeared on RMWeb. Either that or I hacked your hard drive in an alternative reality as someone who actually knew how to do such things! Doubtful. Nice image.

[Re6/6]

l sourced it from Google images a while ago IIRC. Can't find it on there now. Duly credited to you Rick.

 

This combination, which l was unaware until l saw this picture will, in due course, run on Balcombe.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Re6/6

[talisman56]

If you scroll down there is a photo of the Brighton belle l in Eastbourne Station.   Link        http://picssr.com/photos/28976636@N07/interesting/page6?nsid=28976636@N07

 

There was a short-lived 'Eastbourne Belle' service on Sundays on the 50s IIRC, so Eastbourne could in theory be classed as 'on route'...

[Gwiwer]

The Bel+Cor image was one of two I took at Burgess Hill on a day when two 5Bel units were out of traffic.  Demand for the non-stop services (which were hourly though the Belle only made four trips) was usually such that more than 5 cars were required and on this and a few other rare occasions a 4Cor unit was therefore added.  Those travelling in the Cor were not charged a Pullman supplement of course and neither did they have access to any refreshments let alone grilled kippers with tea served from silverware into china cups!

 

The picture has been used before and should carry my usual watermark.  In this case the watermark may be impossible to see since it would be white on the almost-white sky on a  scan from a very average quality print taken on a dull day.  I have no problem with the image being used or re-used, accept that once on the net it stays on the net but thank anyone who wishes to repost it for the attribution.

[Gwiwer]

Same day, same diagram.  In fact the up working at Clayton Tunnel north which was then snapped later at Burgess Hill returning to Brighton.  And same average weather and poor quality scan from a dubious original.  But it was 1970 and I wasn't quite as handy then with a camera neither was the kit (a Halina Paulette) as good as I now have.  

 

 

And the head-on shot as the leading Belle unit runs through Burgess Hill giving very little clue, only the fact that nine and not ten coaches form the train and the rear seems darker than the front, as to what was in tow.

 

 

The top one has also been used before and only recently was posted to a Facebook page.  The lower one I have not previously shown as it is of little more than passing interest not clearly showing the Cor unit on the back.

[Nearholmer]

Was it simply that the other two BEL sets were "off sick", so that a COR had to be substituted?

 

K

[Re6/6]

Thanks Rick. It's irritating that l can't find the images again on Google!

 

Being interested in 'oddities' for Balcombe (and to the annoyance of the other builder!) this set of your pictures has been very useful. We have one of the seemingly much disliked blue/grey Belle sets and an 'old school' BSL 4-COR to build which will be in blue. This of course will be way down the road as there are much more important green EMUs to build yet! 

[Gwiwer]

Was it simply that the other two BEL sets were "off sick", so that a COR had to be substituted?

K

Correct. Selhurst, and in later years Lovers Walk, made a big effort to keep at least two units available but with two of three required for service almost every day of the year there were a few occasions when that wasn't possible.

[talisman56]

With only three sets and two needed for service, it only needed one to be in heavy maintenance and one of the others fail in service for a substitution to occur. In earlier times the substitute unit would be a 6Pul (preferably) or a 6Pan, but once they were disbanded/withdrawn, the only other compatible replacements would be the Cor class (a Buf or Gri would be an alternative, for catering provision, if available).

[Re6/6]

One would assume that the COR/BEL combination wouldn't have occurred in green/umber days.

[talisman56]

One would assume that the COR/BEL combination wouldn't have occurred in green/umber days.

 

CORs were rarely seen on the Brighton line services until the mid-60s when the PUL/PAN units were being replaced by the CIG/BIG units. In January 1964, few were transferred in from the Portsmouth Direct (displaced by CEP/BEP stock) along with some RES units fitted with ex-PUL Pullman Composites to make some older-stock formations compatible with the new stock introduced later that year.

Edited January 1, 2017 by talisman56

[Gwiwer]

The Cor and Buf units which reached the Brighton line were largely rendered surplus when Cep and Bep stock took over on the Mid-Sussex line. Cor and Res units (with the latter replaced by Gri and Buf units in the 1960s) continued on the Portsmouth Direct until the later tranches of Cig and Big units appeared in the early 1970s. Cep and Bep units did see use on the Direct but the "Nelsons" remained firmly in charge.

 

The trio of Gri units was then used on Victoria - Brighton or Littlehampton business trains while 12Cor normally formed the London Bridge workings.