AlanRogers Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 In an attempt to help people better understand the philosophy, and get past the "Digitrax is the Holy Grail" barrier that is implied in the specification, I'd like to make some potentially obvious - and therefore potentially inflamatory - statements: The power bus is specified as two wires, of specific current capacity, with specific plugs and sockets fitted to aide correct connection with adjacent modules at a meeting. Until such time as a power supply is added to it, the bus is actually completely agnostic as regards voltage, AC or DC, frequency et al - it's just a pair of wires with plugs on each end. The signal bus is similarly agnostic as regards control system until such time as a command station is plugged in, at which point the controllers are specified de facto. If a Lenz command station is plugged in, only XpressNet controllers - ideally Lenz - can be used. If a Digitrax command station is plugged in, we're using LocoNet. If MERG, then CanBus. Your own module is, provided it meets the specifications, compliant with your own systems and methods at home, yet equally compliant with the systems and methods chosen by the organisers of any modular meeting that you choose to attend, where the same specification is used. It is not therefore necessary to have controllers for all occasions. If you happen to have a phone on which either Wiithrottle or Engine Driver will run, you can use your own throttle, so long as there's a wireless access point and JMRI installation to hook into, but that's absolutely nothing to do with the specification at all. That's entirely down to the meeting organiser and their available equipment and expertise. Please take this post in the spirit is intended, of enlightment and disconfusion. I see the frustration and misunderstanding implied in some of the posts being made over the past year and can't help but feel that a lot less stress would be experienced if some things were taken either on faith or with a pinch of salt. Let's all take a leaf out of the theatre producer's notebook - it'll be all right on the night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 The Freemo meets so far seem to have used Lenz/Xpressnet, but I'm sure I saw a NMRA spec meet mentioning they used Digitrax. As CromptonNut said, the organiser specifies the standard for the particular meet (with consensus and making sure they have enough equipment) Personally speaking, I took my Lenz handset to the last meet, but ended up using Paul's iPhone on the wireless as it worked better with the amount of movement along the layout required. I'll be loading WiThrottle on my old phone for the next one. Wireless does of course require someone with the kit and expertise to set it up. The biggest issue with having the all modules set up simply with one power district is that a short anywhere can kill everyone's trains, very obvious with lots of sound fitted locos! However, providing it doesn't happen often enough to get annoying, it's not a big deal, there's no general-public audience Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2015 In an attempt to help people better understand the philosophy, and get past the "Digitrax is the Holy Grail" barrier that is implied in the specification, I'd like to make some potentially obvious - and therefore potentially inflamatory - statements: The power bus is specified as two wires, of specific current capacity, with specific plugs and sockets fitted to aide correct connection with adjacent modules at a meeting. Until such time as a power supply is added to it, the bus is actually completely agnostic as regards voltage, AC or DC, frequency et al - it's just a pair of wires with plugs on each end. The signal bus is similarly agnostic as regards control system until such time as a command station is plugged in, at which point the controllers are specified de facto. If a Lenz command station is plugged in, only XpressNet controllers - ideally Lenz - can be used. If a Digitrax command station is plugged in, we're using LocoNet. If MERG, then CanBus. Your own module is, provided it meets the specifications, compliant with your own systems and methods at home, yet equally compliant with the systems and methods chosen by the organisers of any modular meeting that you choose to attend, where the same specification is used. It is not therefore necessary to have controllers for all occasions. If you happen to have a phone on which either Wiithrottle or Engine Driver will run, you can use your own throttle, so long as there's a wireless access point and JMRI installation to hook into, but that's absolutely nothing to do with the specification at all. That's entirely down to the meeting organiser and their available equipment and expertise. Please take this post in the spirit is intended, of enlightment and disconfusion. I see the frustration and misunderstanding implied in some of the posts being made over the past year and can't help but feel that a lot less stress would be experienced if some things were taken either on faith or with a pinch of salt. Let's all take a leaf out of the theatre producer's notebook - it'll be all right on the night. "Disconfusion". I don't think that word is in the OED - but it really should be. A very useful word, especially during a General Election. Seriously though, very useful that those who understand DCC give those of us who do not all the info we need to build our modules compatible. My "blank" is what I need to do to the Peco 75 points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 This type of reverse loop conundrum is where having signalling on the module becomes helpful in order to prevent trains entering the reversing section when another train is leaving and vice versa inevitably causing a short. The signals would be interlocked so that either the entry signal(s) or exit signal can be pulled off but not at the same time. The signalling on this module could be complex with it being a bi-directional loop and also possibly being used to turn back as well, but could be a good exercise either in JMRI or in local logic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanRogers Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 "Disconfusion" - I don't think that word is in the OED I think I ran out of eloquence at that point, and took another sip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2015 I see that the OP intends the title to be a tribute to his dad. But it is unfortunate in the context of DCC. The song goes: Return to sender, Address unknown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 Just assembled the boards in the living room for the first time (it's back to front - sorry - and the angle of the shot makes it look egg-shaped, it isn't). Wiring is next. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Just assembled the boards in the living room for the first time (it's back to front - sorry - and the angle of the shot makes it look egg-shaped, it isn't). Wiring is next. 20150429_1536211.jpg I'm not sure what the running surface is. But shouldn't there be cross bracing for it? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'm not sure what the running surface is. But shouldn't there be cross bracing for it? Andy I built the end boards for my G scale layout using 6mm ply to form a H section and they happily carry 5kg locos without flexing or any intermediate bracing. The curve makes the sides very strong and stable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 6mm MDF. Each board is 12" wide and about 2ft long - the overall circle is about 7ft. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well I've started the wiring for the circle part today - not a problem but I have discovered that it is more or less impossible to actually erect the module completely at home, unless I can somehow move the kitchen table out of the way and even then I'm not entirely convinced. That may not be a big deal as - at least in theory - if all the bits fit together (which they do), and all the boards work independently (which they will) then I should be able to get everything together at our modular meet for the first time and it all works. No, I'm not convinced either but apart from lugging it all down three flights of stairs and running an extension lead down it, I'm not completely sure what other option there is. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor cash to turn the loft into a modelling area, as nice as that would be... In other news, I bought the remaining wood for the legs today, which was nice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 The circle bit does go up vertically ... but I can't run trains that way. Magnadhesion is only effective to a certain point... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-e Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 If you can't erect it horizontally, why not try vertically? Yeah like a giant Hamster wheel sit inside and then you can roll it down the stairs to your car.... but in post #33 it looked like you had it all together so you know it forms a wheel sorry.. circle so you know that part works. and as you say each part works independently, the other option may be to number the boards so they have a specific place in the circle that way you can test the boards to a certain point eg if you can safely assemble 3 boards then test 1 - 2 - 3 then add 4 to test 2 - 3 - 4 etc... until youv'e tested all boards and proved that a train should go around. The only problem may then be what if when they are all connected in a circle with that cause some big error, the solution may be just add a wire from each bit of track at the end of the junction to the other track on the other side of the junction the wires representing the circle of track if you know what I mean... EDIT like this Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 Steve, what I can do is set up the junction part and the first three boards - that's the one adjacent to the junction and one either side - in the kitchen, no problem. Then, by connecting the boards together with the daisy chain of power feeds, that is exactly the same as a train being in the circle, just without the track. I can also put the boards vertically and apply power, and "hold" a train against the rails and at least prove it should go round. Thankfully at the modular meet it's at the end so if it doesn't work and we can't figure it out then we can just terminate and run round trains at Shillingstone, everything else will still function, we just lose the 2 1/2 mile return run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-e Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I'm sure it will be spot on. if there is any issue I have a class 37 I've removed the motor out of that free wheels.. we could do a loco swap in Shillingstone to signify a loco failure and use hand of God to drag the train around the loop, then do loco swap again in Shillingstone as the original loco has now been fixed to continue on. Sorted.. no issues... Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 I have a similarly (un)endowed Lima class 73 Bought cheap as a "poor runner" (which was a bit of an understatement really, it produced great diesel clag effects from the motor but didn't move) I spent half an hour poking and fiddling before ripping the motor out. I bought it predominantly as it had been repainted into NSE livery as 73109 (minus name) which spent many years stabled in the bay at Woking when I used to head down there on a regular basis (many relationships ago...) knowing that it would run happily as a dead loco with my CEP and VEP fleet so I didn't worry too much about it being beyond hope internally. PS - the hamster wheel idea would work as far as the first wall, after about 4 seconds... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Now you're in less of a hurry to complete RTS, are you open to a scenic suggestion (with slight layout alteration) that would increase vastly the RTS operations options? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Now you're in less of a hurry to complete RTS, are you open to a scenic suggestion (with slight layout alteration) that would increase vastly the RTS operations options? Feel free to suggest it What do you have in mind? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Feel free to suggest it What do you have in mind? Ely North Junction, or a variation thereof. Existing line into RTS would be the line from March, add couple of extra spurs for the other routes off. Mirror image may work better, rather than all being double track routes some single track could be more inclusive. Plus the modern single track balloon loop has a nice diamond crossing at one end rather than joining onto the nearest track it reaches which could be operationally interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 RTS was only ever designed as a single track loop - although double track is possible at least on the loop it would require some rebuild/rethinking of the junction itself which isn't insurmountable but does of course mean my existing small tunnel and the station I had planned for it would need removing and replacing (I've already glued down 4ft of platform edge...) However one thing that it may be possible to do is down to Tim Horn having cut me a spare curve section. This means that it would be possible to replace the 3rd board - approx. 90 degrees left of the input boards - with a "modified" board containing a Y point, then an additional board coming off of that (a little surgery to the board to make a straight edge would be required but that's easy enough - or I get Tim to cut me another of the end boards that already has the straight edge. That would mean I can either use the existing board C from the loop when I am using the loop in straightforward loop mode, or use this "Modified C" piece with an additional board to make a 45 degree junction coming off of the loop on the left hand side, and use my existing "Brockhole Curve" in either orientation to make a branch at 90 degrees to the incoming line, or an offset in the straight direction. Depending on which way round I lay the point, it would either mean trains from the branch go via the station, or they avoid it. Not sure which would be more useful. If I'm understanding you correctly of course - I've only been able to find an older signalbox diagram of the junction so I don't know if it has been changed since. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The loop is single track these days....google earth is probably your friend for the modern layout. The mainline runs ely - march with the kings lynn and norwich lines branching off at a single point rather than double track junction and the balloon as single track too. Most of the lines (apart from ely) head off in similar directions so it can still be at an end. I think the term 'based on' would apply to make it a useful module. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 I shall do more research ... but a good idea at its base level as I essentially get two modules for the price of one if I make this additional board which gives me two options based on whatever configuration best suits the meet. I couldn't really do a faithful reproduction of Ely North Junction without a complete rebuild - and I don't think that's really necessary as there's nothing wrong with RTS as such - the two reasons it's not coming this weekend are my electric saw dying meaning I couldn't finish what I was wanting to do, and the accident ripping up the track at the end join leaving me insufficient time to rectify the issues. As has been mentioned elsewhere, I should really recognise my limits and building boards plus organising a meet is really too much for me. But at least I won't have so much building to do for next time - and I hope to have some other boards by then too. Hopefully if someone else comes up with a fiddle yard module then I won't need to bring mine which will increase the space available in the car for other stuff.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 There's more important things in life too. I probably didn't make it clear, I wasn't suggesting a faithful reproduction of the junction, just using your existing shape to create something similar. Even without RTS, the meet should be able to achieve what we hope it can. See you tomorrow morning! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hey cromptonnut, just wondering how you got on with 'return to sender'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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