7 completed 3 L&Y & 1 Midland loco in progress.

[Simon Moore]

I suppose, I under estimate myself horsetan. It's something I do a lot but never say never. I would like to do 1 of the Finney a3's at some point.

 

Simon

[Horsetan]

....I would like to do 1 of the Finney A3s at some point.....

 

You'll be glad to hear there are no crank axles or eccentrics in that kit. Instead, all you have to worry about is the 2-to-1 lever.

[45609]

Hello,

 

I thought perhaps I should offer my practical experience of building the BM 4F kit and in particular the inside motion.

 

Here is the short version penned to a friend some months ago. It mainly relates to the inside motion kit but there are a few other niggles too. In no particular order.

The bottom end of the piston valve rocking levers clash with the slide bars and do so in both EM or P4. The slide bars need chamfering considerably.
It is impossible to get the slide bars through the lost wax piston gland castings without a lot of filing. I scrapped them and turned some new ones on the lathe.
The eccentrics for the con rods are a compromise. Fair enough but why put them 180 degrees opposed instead of 90 degrees?
The lost wax cross heads don't fit and need huge amounts filing off them to fit through the motion bracket and slide smoothly in the slide bars. Also the double thickness little end of the con rod does not fit in the slot in the cross head.
The front cast sandboxes should be spaced further out from the frames
The cut out in the firebox clothing on the resin boiler does not line up with the hole for the filler cap in the running plate.
The middle crinoline on the firebox is in the wrong place. It is too far forward.
A personal thing but I don't like the way the frames stick up through the running plate. I scratch built new frames to solder directly to the running plate and cut the chassis frames down.
The rear of the frames are not the correct profile behind the steps. Discovered this when doing the injectors and comparing works drawings in the Wild Swan books.

I have also done the following in terms of additional details over and above the the kit parts supplied.

Milled brass sandboxes
Injector detail behind the cab steps
Turned sandbox filler lids
New washout plugs and mud-hole doors

I still have quite a bit to do and will probably machine a number of other replacement fittings because I think the castings are a bit crude. Again just my personal preferences coming through. These will consist of,

Snifter valves
Smoke box door
Chimney
Dome
Ejector

I've attached a few photos to show you where it is at. Unfortunately the inside motion is out at the moment waiting for me to finish off the piston valve parts (more machining) and to paint the frames.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that what looks good in the unassembled state ain't necessarily so when you try to put it together.  I'm not trying to put anyone off trying but forewarned is forearmed from one that has been there and done it.  Without doubt the BM team are to be applauded for marketing a high fidelity kit of this everyday prototype and with hard work you can end up with an excellent model.  Just beware of the traps.

 

Best of luck Simon.  PM me if you need to know more.

 

Morgan

[Kempenfelt]

Thanks for posting Morgan, that's a really useful addition to the thread! Although I've had the privilege of seeing your 4f up close, albeit at an earlier stage, I hadn't quite realised the extent of the modifications you'd made to get this far! It's great to have some feedback from someone who's actually had some experience of this kit!

 

Apart from the EM model described in MRJ, John Sheratt's P4 model, Pinkmouse's build to date and now Simon's model, I'm unaware of any other that have actually made it out of the box! (I don't feel my own attempt at starting the the inside valve gear quite merits joining this list just yet! ;-) ) John certainly had to do a lot of additional work to his model before he was happy with it, although I hadn't got as far as asking him for a list of his modifications.

 

Having read the above I like the idea of all the modification's that you've undertaken on your model and would certainly like to adopt all of your suggestions into my pair which are hibernating in their boxes, although I've got no grand delusions of either of them making any kind of appearance anytime soon! As you well know I've got a Jinty that needs to make a reappearance first!! ;-)

 

Talking of which, one area of the kit which stands out to me is the slight tubby'ness of the BM rods in the kit. Having built a pair of the BM and High Level rods I was particularly impressed by the latter. I'm sure this is nothing that a good file and a careful hand can't correct, but well worth the effort IMHO. Alternatively the new rods from Dave Franks may be worth considering, although I've got no experience of these so wouldn't be able to provide any practical advice on these!

 

Keep up the good work Simon, following this with interest!

 

Best Wishes

 

Paul

[Horsetan]

...my pair which are hibernating in their boxes, ...

Hell, you've got two as well? It must be catching.... So now we know where 4 out of the batch of 50 went!

 

the new rods from Dave Franks may be worth considering, although I've got no experience of these so wouldn't be able to provide any practical advice on these!

I've just received a set of the universal rods. One thing that is very clear is that you need a jig, or a reliable means of keeping the chosen wheelbase constant in order to assemble them, otherwise you've got no chance.

 

The instruction sheet is very dense, with closely-typed text and a diagram. Needs reading several times, if only to stop the words swimming before your very eyes.

 

I needed them for a 6'4" x 6'6" wheelbase, so it's not like I've got many alternatives.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Horsetan

[45609]

Thanks for posting Morgan, that's a really useful addition to the thread! Although I've had the privilege of seeing your 4f up close, albeit at an earlier stage, I hadn't quite realised the extent of the modifications you'd made to get this far! It's great to have some feedback from someone who's actually had some experience of this kit!

 

Apart from the EM model described in MRJ, John Sheratt's P4 model, Pinkmouse's build to date and now Simon's model, I'm unaware of any other that have actually made it out of the box! (I don't feel my own attempt at starting the the inside valve gear quite merits joining this list just yet! ;-) ) John certainly had to do a lot of additional work to his model before he was happy with it, although I hadn't got as far as asking him for a list of his modifications.

 

Having read the above I like the idea of all the modification's that you've undertaken on your model and would certainly like to adopt all of your suggestions into my pair which are hibernating in their boxes, although I've got no grand delusions of either of them making any kind of appearance anytime soon! As you well know I've got a Jinty that needs to make a reappearance first!! ;-)

 

Talking of which, one area of the kit which stands out to me is the slight tubby'ness of the BM rods in the kit. Having built a pair of the BM and High Level rods I was particularly impressed by the latter. I'm sure this is nothing that a good file and a careful hand can't correct, but well worth the effort IMHO. Alternatively the new rods from Dave Franks may be worth considering, although I've got no experience of these so wouldn't be able to provide any practical advice on these!

 

Keep up the good work Simon, following this with interest!

 

Best Wishes

 

Paul

 

Hello Paul,

 

I think you can add another one to that list because as you know this model is actually a rebuild of the kit originally built and painted by Scalefour Society member Gwilym McCoach.  It was bought as a non runner with static inside valve gear.  The basic running plate and cab assembly is the only part of the original build remaining.  The cause of the non running was a broken tooth on an idler gear in the original gearbox so the chassis had to be taken right back to the frames.  The inside valve gear was scrapped and a new fret purchased from BM.  At this point I discovered that the hornblock setup was a bit iffy and so I decided to strip those out as well and replace them with High Level space saver units (adapted to suit the original spring fulcrum points in the frames).  Although it was built as a P4 model Gwilym had used the EM frame spacers and so the erection and fitting of the inside motion has been a little tight.  But it is do-able.....just.

 

Tubby rods in the vertical plane isn't really a bad thing as I prefer them this way so I can file down to remove the cusps and make them look like solid forgings.   Although I haven't tried to assemble any yet I'm believe Dave's rods take the same approach but I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Cheers....Morgan

 

P.S. Stop talking about the Jinty and just get on with it!

[Adam]

As you well know I've got a Jinty that needs to make a reappearance first!! ;-)

 

You mean it *still* isn't complete?! Wasn't it a runner last time I saw it? What Morgan said...

 

Adam

[Kempenfelt]

I'm afraid not Adam, in fact it's taken a few steps backwards and looks more like its undergoing a heavy general overhaul than resembling a working locomotive! You are correct in that it has actually run, however I wasn't entirely happy with the way it performed with an intermittent tight spot making an unwanted apperance every so often. I also always wished I'd built it as a CSB rather than compensated chassis whic left me slightly dissatisfied. Having traced the intermittent fault to the front left hornblock that had a small amount of fore and aft movement, this ultimately gave me the impetus to strip the chassis back to its component parts, upgrade the chassis with new(ish) HL hornblocks and do away with the compensation beam and modify it for CSB. Mark Humphies has also very kindly milled the axles for me to accommodate pinning. Ultimately I'll end up with a chassis I'm much happier with, however there's the small matter of reassembly that needs to take place first!

 

Apologies for the thread drift Simon, back to 4f's now I promise!

[Simon Moore]

I've been battling with this model & i mean battle.

There are things i really about this kit, some really well thought out design but some things i don't like. I built the frames up as the instructions stated but my model in the end was going to be rigid. I've built the tender base & tried out the springing method but i am not competent enough to build this into the kit & i couldnt get it to work properly so i gave up trying. I've built the frames rigid & it is a smooth running tender chassis & i decided that the loco would be rigid too. 

I built the loco frames up with the laminated sides fitted & top hat bearings when my first problem hit. I tried a set of both gibson & markits wheels in the frames & both axels would not clear the frames at all. It seems this kit is designed for 1 set of wheels & p4 in mind. I ended up slitting all the kit spacers to remove them & replaced them with em spacers from another kit. The size of the kit spacers were larger than the ones i fitted from another kit. 

I've no doubt that to a expert builder this is a great kit but for me i think it is a little above my skill set. I've done my best with it & after a battle i have finally got the chassis to be free running & smooth. I've had to do a fair bit of bodging but its coming together now. 

 

 

 

 

The coupling rods was another ball ache. They are a triple laminate which is riveted. The bosses on the rods would not fit on the gibson crank pins because they were far to thick on the boss which i thought was again designed solely for ultrascale wheels.

In the end i de soldered the rods & made a double laminate which was soldered together. Probably not the best way for some but for me it has worked & the chassis is now working. 



I have felt like drop kicking this model down the road a couple of times & honestly i cannot wait to have the thing finished & on to a fresh model. I do have other kits to build but i believe that i need to finish one before starting another. I am going to plough on with this model this next week because i want it finished by saturday next week.

It is starting to look like a 4f though now.



Simon

[Horsetan]

Well, at least you've tried. If only to convince yourself that a superkit is not for you.

[45609]

Oh dear Simon, sorry to hear that you've been having problems.  I hope you don't think the posting of my experiences have jinxed the build.

 

From what I've seen so far on your other stuff I'd say it is far from it being a lack of competence.  Slitting the frame spacers down the middle actually shows a lot of confidence that you could retrieve a bad situation by this approach.  That is certainly a demonstration of skill in my book.  No, I think it is more to do with equal measures of errors in the design approach coupled with an insufficient level of debugging of the kit with extensive test building and instruction writing/rewriting.  I am not levelling this criticism at BM alone as I think it is a common problem with kits in general.  I'll admit it must be really difficult for them to cover all potential permutations of how someone might want to build and use the model.  However at the very least the instructions should state that "this is how it was test built" and "with these components" and if necessary "in all three gauges".  I think it is remiss of a kit design to provide parts for the narrower gauges and not then be able to say confidently "it can be built in EM or 00 by doing A, B and C etc.... because we have done it".  Without doing this putting the narrow gauge parts in is, at best, tokenism.

 

High fidelity kits should not, in my opinion, be difficult to build.  Time consuming, certainly, but each sub task should not be hard to execute because the parts don't fit with the bits you've bought to complete the ensemble.  I guess I would consider myself an expert builder but I certainly don't think the BM 4F is a great kit.  I agree with your statement.  I have also found it to be a ball ache!

 

I sense from you posting that you have one of the essential elements of a kit builder....Perseverance.  So don't, as has been suggested, chuck the towel in with superkits.  The other elements to good kit building whether, it's a rotten old lump of whitemetal or a piece of etched art, are Planning, Patience and Experience.  You're making good inroads on all of these from what I've seen in this thread so far.  Just keep at it and don't, as some do, sit there looking at the bits in the box.

 

Cheers....Morgan

[Simon Moore]

Morgan I think you was right about fore warned is fore armed.

 

I've ploughed on with the build & got the tender finished & painted. Some of the finer details I've left out. You could go on forever & honestly the bits I've left off you can't see.

 

I probably should have detailed it but this build has got me down. I've built 2 Jim McGowan kits & a Djh white metal 1 & they've all been challenging but enjoyable. This 4f has got far to many unnecessary over complicated parts to it. The cab has overlays & I cannot see why it needs it or the way the roof is designed to be doubled.

 

I've had a good day though today & built the cab & finished most of the soldering work. I've started to fit the white metal castings to what I hope is the correct 4f i'm modelling. It's a minefield with fittings etc & differences.

 

Mine is a midland loco in midland livery although the tender is wrong. I will replace later when I have funds to do so.

 

I am planning a layout though now. It was our club open day Sunday & I saw a members layout which has really tempted me to get my arse into gear & do something.

 

I've been taking photos of the 4f I will update the thread when I have a bit more time.

 

Simon

[Simon Moore]

I've finally got close to finishing this build. The 4f is currently painted in satin black & I've started to paint the bufferbeam. I've tested the chassis & it's running although I think I have a tight spot to find before final assembly.

 https://youtu.be/4hKYhDPtL-4

 

Simon

[Simon Moore]

This loco has taken more turns than a roller coaster. 

I've fought with it every step of the way & i'm glad it is now in the final stages of construction. I purchased the motor & gearbox combo that it said on the website but i could not for the life of me get it to fit into the boiler or firebox. In the end i gave up & put another gearbox in which is only temporary its a DS10 !

Right first up was the tender. 



This kit is very detailed & i doubt i would choose it again, i think it is far too detailed & over complex which is hidden once painted anyway. I am happy now the kit is built & i am happy with how it looks. I've no doubt it is completely wrong but i am happy with it & it looks right to me.





I was going to do it as a midland loco but in the end i decided on early LMS livery. I really like this early livery i think it looks different against br black. I just need to add a crew, coal, buffers & tender picks plus loco & tender brake blocks but i will just glue those on.

The McGowan N7/3 is coming next & i am looking forward to that one. I'm going on holiday 2 weeks this saturday & i want it finished before then & painted in base colours. I won't be lining it out i will be giving it to a friend at the club for that because i cannot get on with fox transfers & i cannot line for toffee with a pen.

 

[cb900f]

In addition, the reversisng lever is absent on the RHS and the pipe/handrail should continue along the smokebox forward of the vacuum ejector.

 

Pete

[Simon Moore]

Pete they are to add also I forgot to mention them.

 

I hope to have this model done & finished by Sunday So I can start the N7 Monday.

[cb900f]

Simon,

 

You are doing really well. Completing a Brassmasters as your 4th kit.

 

Pete

[Horsetan]

In addition, the reversisng lever is absent on the RHS and the pipe/handrail should continue along the smokebox forward of the vacuum ejector.

 

 

....to say nothing of the brake gear?

[Simon Moore]

It's all in hand. I've missed a few final details off which are going to be added over the weekend.

 

I decided to start the N7 today & i'm currently building up the chassis as we speak.

 

Simon

[pete_mcfarlane]

So I'm nowhere near finished with my entry and you're starting on number four...............

[Simon Moore]

Number 5 Pete ; )

 

The basis chassis on the N7 is now rolling freely with coupling rods fitted.

 

Simon

[Simon Moore]

After spending the past couple of weeks battling with the 4F i decided to start another kit. I've decided that i will build the N7 & then return to the 4F to finish off the final detailing & extra pick ups. 

After a flick through the instructions i started with the frames & basic chassis construction. The chassis frames come as a fold up etch which firstly needed to be broken down to just the side frames so i could EM it. The instructions says that the fold up is perfect for EM out the packet but i found there was very little clearance on the axles for side play so split it & built it with EM spacers. I've also cut the chassis behind the last driving axle so the the pony truck can negotiate tight corners. There are extra parts to extend the frames which solder to the side of the pony truck.

 

 

 

 

Excellent kit so far no problems & the chassis is floating along with no binding or tight spots & i've done no fettling at all. I opened out the connecting rods when i put them on the chassis jig but i do that as standard with every kit. They usually need opening out extra but this one is fine. I'm going to build the basic body tomorrow i think if i have time but hopefully this one should fall together like the other 2 McGowan kits i've built so far.

Thats all for now.

Simon

[Horsetan]

So I'm nowhere near finished with my entry and you're starting on number four...............

It's partly due to Simon's natural impatience. We've been here before - remember a bloke named "Metropolitan" who also built stuff in record time? He was last heard of trying to undermine the Scalefour Society.....

 

I'd say the Brassmasters 4F was good for Simon because it actually forced him to slow down and think....and that is no bad thing.

[Simon Moore]

This afternoon I got the chassis finished on the N7. It has been a hassle free build so far & i'm happy with the chassis so far.

 

The brake detail that runs under the chassis I've left off for now. I'm going to add full detail but only once I'm happy with the pick ups. I'm still on course I think to have this finished by next weekend although I am hoping it's done by Thursday so it can haul a train on the club layout.

 

Quick video of the chassis

https://youtu.be/pHBk2ijKSA0

 

Simon

[Simon Moore]

This morning i wanted to make a start on the body of the N7 & get the boiler & smoke box rolled & assembled. My thoughts on Jim McGowans kits are clear ( There Ace )

Everything on the boiler was firstly annealed on the hob & rolled over a brass tube by hand. The parts of these kits just fit perfectly its a real joy to build & certainly better than a brassmasters 4f :S

Firstly the parts before annealing.



I've placed the parts on the footplate & the main body sides are soldered to the footplate. I'm going to put some lead in the side tanks & boiler before i fully assemble the body which i will do after i have made the family tea.



I think this should be finished by Wednesday afternoon all being well & off to be lined by a friend.

Simon