Ketford 00/009 GWR/BR(W) - Baseboards

[Erudhalion]

I've decided to start a topic about my attempt at constructing a layout, I hope it'll be more visible than on my blog.

 

This is the rough track plan, the black lines at the top are 009 tracks:

 

 

The total size of the layout is going to be 13' x 1' 10'', divided into two 6' 6'' x 1' 10'' boards, with about 7'-8' scenic section and a fiddle yard.

 

The setting is a alternative version of the Forest of Dean in the 1950s, in which some of the old tramways have been modernised and turned into a narrow gauge system serving the surviving collieries. My layout will represent a station where the coal is transferred to the standard gauge lines, and any supplies required by the collieries are delivered to the NG lines. The station also serves a nearby village with a minimal passenger service and general goods facilities (a goods shed and cattle pens).

 

The NG track will enter the layout from the back and descend a gradient to the station and interchange, which will be slightly higher than the SG siding. The SG track will itself be slightly above the current baseboard.

 

I had previously (about 10 years ago) made an attempt at building a layout which was going to be called Ketford (a village near where my grandparents used to live in Gloucestershire). I eventually grew dissatisfied and stopped working on it. It has been languishing in the cellar for some years in a half-finished state. Here is what it looked like:

 

 

Note the rational wiring, well thought out "shelf" for the controllers and the rather steep incline on the hill near the three sidings. Also sorry for the angle of the pic and the little specks of dust all over the picture.

 

The main things wrong with it were:

 

- Excessively tight curves and turnouts, to the point that I had put some additional spacers in certain places to widen the track slightly to make it easier for my six coupled locos to get through

- Badly laid track which caused frequent derailments

- Very train set like design, which was great to just watch the trains go by, but wasn't that great to operate

- Totally chaotic wiring (as the photo proves ), which was fairly sophisticated (one controller each for the two loops and the sidings, and a diode matrix controlling the points) and reliable, but basically impossible to fix had anything gone wrong.

- No provision made for storage

- Lack of rigidity in the boards

- Incredibly noisy because of the 5mm ply tops

 

The idea is that the two board of the new layout will fit together forming a box to make storage easier and keep the dust off.

 

What I am currently doing is stripping everything back to the bare board, then cutting the whole thing in half along its length. I will then strengthen where necessary and use the resulting boards for the new layout. The salvaged 00 track will be used for the fiddle yard, and I will use Peco code 75 with medium turnouts for the scenic section.

 

Here is the current state of play:

 

 

The track and electrics are mostly gone. I'm currently trying to remove the cork underlay without damaging the baseboard much. It remains to be seen how successful I am

 

I don't expect progress to be particularly fast, but I hope to get most of the woodwork done fairly quickly.

[Erudhalion]

I've finally finished removing everything from the boards. Most of the underlay, plywood risers etc. didn't come off very easily, so the top of the board is quite damaged in places. I'm glueing the worst back on, but it shouldn't be too critical as I intend to in new raised sections for the 00 and 009 track beds.

 

Photos as soon as I find who has stolen my camera.

[Erudhalion]

Update:

 

The original tops of the boards are non in excellent shape, but good enough considering that I won't be laying track on them.

 

Here is the board before sanding.

 

 

I sanded a bit to get most of the remaining gunk off, but ran out of sandpaper. I will sand some more when I get some more.

 

 

After that it was time to measure, measure again, check I had measure correctly, double check, grit my teeth and voilà!

 

 

I still need to remove a bit of the former canal area (which caused quite a bit of trouble because it was holding the two halves together. Anyway, a bit of hacking got them free.

 

In the last photo you can also see the timber and plywood for the next stage. I'm also thinking about some sort of alignment system, either the hinge method or this one: http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=3124

 

[Erudhalion]

A bit of progress: the new sides have been attached, and the old top glued down along the edge (hence the clamps).

 

I was doing a bit of a rough mock-up earlier with the 009 track I've got and some Peco templates.

 

 

I've decided for sector plates for at least the standard gauge fiddle yard, I think it is a more efficient use of space. It looks like I'll be able to get about 4' of fiddle yard and 9' of scenic section and still be able to fit the longest train that will fit in the station loop in the fiddle yard.

 

Things are looking good!

 

The next step is making the legs on the boards and fixing them together.

[37038]

Looks like it will be fun to operate. Get bored with OO, just swap to the OO9!

[Erudhalion]

I'm in that stage i stare intently at the boards, measure things and wonder if I have a 13' long sheet of paper.

 

One thing I have determined is that the fiddle yard needs careful planning. My original idea was to have the 009 station on a level, and then a climb out of the station to the scenic break, so that the 009 portion of the fiddle yard will be above the 00 portion. However, it looks like I wont be able to get the 009 track high enough in the space I've got, at most 5ish cm above the 00 track with a 3% gradient.

 

I'll have think up an alternative arrangement.

[37038]

Get a cheap roll of lining paper or end-of-line wallpaper from a DIY store - I always find that the easiest way to draw layouts!

[Erudhalion]

Wallpaper is not terribly popular here in Italy, I can't remember ever seeing any in my local DIY places.

 

I think my dad has some massive sheets of paper for technical drawing back in ye olden dayes before computers, I'd better go and have a rummage.

[Joseph_Pestell]

This looks to have great potential.

 

There was an excellent Forest of Dean based layout called Lydgate at last weekend's RailWest exhibition in Melksham. I think there are some photos on the Railwest 2015  thread.

 

One small point. If things are to be delivered to the colliery by the narrow gauge, you would need a narrow gauge track at the same level as the standard gauge as well as the higher level tracks for unloading the coal.

 

While you are shifting the templates around, you will get a much better looking layout if you can introduce a few curves and/or put the station platform not parallel to the edge of the baseboard.

[Erudhalion]

I had thought about trying to put things on a gentle curve. I haven't got much width to work with, so I'm not sure how much I can do, but if I change around where the structures are located I might be able to gently curve the station towards the front of the boards (the bottom edge in the track plan). The other thing to consider is that I want the track to be as perpendicular as possible over the baseboard joint.

 

As for moving things to the collieries, I had thought that a yard crane next to/between the standard gauge and narrow gauge sidings would have been enough as the difference in levels will only be around 1cm, enough to get the tops of the wagons at the same height. I am basing myself on some photos of Minffordd on the Festiniog for that aspect. I'll try and find more info about similar arrangements elswhere.

 

Lydgate is rather splendid!

[Erudhalion]

I'm back! It's been a while, I was playing with real trains in the Forest of Dean.

 

Anyway, the main scenic board is now standing on its own legs and is surprisingly stable and wobble-free.

 

 

And here it is with the legs folded up:

 

 

The legs make the top of the board 85cm high, which I think gives me a nice low view point if I'm sitting in a chair, and makes the underside easily accessible for wiring etc.

 

The legs have been sealed with shellac, the boards themselves still need a lot of stuff glued to them before sealing.

 

The board with the fiddle yard will only have one set of legs one end and be bolted to the main board at the other. Now I need to sort out the plywood for the backscene and edges before I get to work on the second board's legs.

[Erudhalion]

More progress: the two boards now have their full complement of legs and can be bolted together with three 8mm bolts with spring washers and wingnuts, and the whole assembly is still remarkably solid. I will be adding hinges with removable pins to the sides eventually, but I need to put some plywood strips around the sides first to cover up holes and other damage caused during the dismantling.

 

I've also been mocking up some track to see if I have enough width to put the station loop on a slight curve, here is what it looks like:

 

 

 

I think it looks quite good, better than the straight version. I didn't want all the sidings parallel, I think having them diverging slightly help give a rural branch line feel, even on these narrow boards.

 

The idea is still to have an engine shed off the single strip towards the camera in the second photo, but there isn't a lot of space between the slip and the baseboard joint, so I will have to come up with a compact arrangement of some sort, or take the siding across the joint and have the shed on the fiddle yard board.

 

I've also been measuring the length of the station loop to see how long the fiddle yard seems needs to be, it looks like a little over 4' should be enough. As its going to be some sort of sector plate design, I won't be wasting space with points for a fan of sidings. I've still got to work out how to get both the 00 and 009 sectors in side by side.

 

The next thing to do is to get the backscene attached so I can box the whole thing up.

[mike morley]

There is something very satisfying and almost therapeutic about recycling old baseboards.

 

My latest set were made from those of scrapped previous layouts and have ended up a total of 16 feet long, of which 12 feet is scenic, and sweep through a gentle curve.  They are the best baseboards I've ever built and it adds considerably to the satisfaction to know that the total expenditure was just £2.95 on a packet of panel pins.

 

If you haven't already done it, work out the total expenditure on your "new" baseboards.  When something goes horribly wrong (as it inevitably will at some stage) with the layout it can be comforting to be able to remind yourself just how little it cost you.

 

And with regard to Ketford, I detect a hint or two of Parkend's Marsh Sidings in its nature.  Would that not be a better source of inspiration than Minffordd?

 

Edited to correct the spelling of Minffordd.  And me a Cambrian modeller, too!

[Erudhalion]

I'm trying not to think of the cost, the 10mm ply for the new track beds is proving to be quite expensive

 

I was looking at photos of Minffordd to see what kind of infrastructure to expect on  narrow- to standard gauge exchange sidings. I hadn't heard of Parkend Marsh Sidings, but I've just found an 1898 track plan of the station here http://crjennings.com/The%20Remains%20of%20Britains%20Steam%20Age%20Railway/Rems%2011.html(about halfway down), so I'll do my research.

 

EDIT: I've done a quick search for photos of Marsh sidings has turned up this: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-7177-0-80273900-1408549297.jpgand this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/8293504587/in/photostream/

 

If I've worked out the locations on the track plan correctly, the wall on the left of the tracks in the first photo has the tramway tracks above it. It is quite a lot taller than I expected, I'd say about 5' or 6'.  I'll keep searching for other photos, but there doesn't seem to be much about.

[mike morley]

Volume one of Wild Swan's book on the Severn and Wye Railway will give you much, much more detail, including trackplans from 1877, 1898 and 1920, all to a much bigger scale than the one on that link.

[Erudhalion]

I was very tempted by that book when I was staying at the DFR earlier this summer, but decided against getting it as my bag was looking perilously close to Ryanair's maximum size and weight

 

There are a couple of sellers on Amazon that ship to Italy, so I might order a copy.

 

EDIT: Marsh Sidings is a real revelation!

 

From what I've seen, the tramway tracks were about level with the tops of the standard gauge wagons. I think it makes sense, considering that the contents of the wagons (presumably coal or something similar) could be tipped or shovelled into the standard gauge wagons. On the Ffestiniog I imagine the slate would have to be moved by hand into the standard gauge wagons, hence the lower narrow gauge track level. That seems reasonable to me, but I might be totally wrong.

 

As it turns out, if I have a higher narrow gauge track height, I can get the 009 track high enough over the 00 track that I can use two separate sector plates in the fiddle yard, with the 009 one moving above the 00 one. That was my original plan and seems to me the easiest to build and stow away. I think I can do all this without exceeding a 3% gradient out of the 009 station. A few experiments this evening have shown that my peco Dennis can easily tackle a 4% gradient, possibly more, but it is a heavy loco with six driving wheels and relatively light loads (I have only got 3 009 wagons, one of them is a brake van and I can only fit so many weights in the others). I'm not sure any other locos I might get can do the same, so I will keep it to 3% on the layout

 

EDIT 2: After further searches for photos of transfer sidings I've found these photos, which are exactly the sort of thing I'm looking to model: https://waterlanemodelrailway.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/inspiration-the-transfer-siding/and https://waterlanemodelrailway.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/inspiring-images-transfer-sidings-3/

 

It looks like I will be going for a wall 4 or 5 cm tall, maybe with some sort of chute.

[Erudhalion]

Update: I have drawn up 1:1 plans of the scenic part, some modifications to the track plan have been made, it now looks something like this:

 

 

I've moved one siding from coming off the single slip to coming off the point on the siding that runs next to the 009 track (if that makes sense). I discovered that in its old location it didn't allow much width for the engine shed I want to put there. Also, I would have had to take the siding across the baseboard joint to have enough length. Like this all of the station is on one board.

 

I've also slightly curved the loop just to make it look better. It also gives me a bit more space to model the station building and surrounding area.

 

Next I will transfer it to plywood and start cutting.

[DenisBJ]

Hi,

 

It's a pity you've got so far with your design since I think I've found a REAL location in the Forest of Dean that meets your requirements.

 

I don't know how to include the picture in this reply so I've added it as an attachment.

 

The area is of the Eastern Colliery just south of Cinderford. The main line is shown as a twin track for modelling purposes but is, in reality, a single track main line. There is a major set of sidings and a narrow gauge 'Tramway' spectacularly crossing the main line twice in this small space coming from the 'Shakemanle' Quarry (Iron, Stone and Lime)

 

The grid is two feet (00 scale) and the land contours are 5mtrs (1:1)  I have not included the buildings since I am in the process of establishing which existed at the time of this layout. But there was a small platform (Staple Edge Halt) built along the small straight (Horizontal) section of track which served the village of Ruspidge.

 

I have also not included the roads but modern Ordnance Survey maps still show the line of the disused railway so It should not be difficult to locate them. 

 

Please contact me if you, or anyone needs more information.