WEST - EAST ORIENTATION

[Broadway Clive]

Although I spent most of my working life on London Transport/Underground, the subject of which way round a train was facing was rarely a problem because most lines did not have loops, and those that did quickly used them to restore order. The ‘A’ end normally faced west and the ‘D’ end faced east, so that coupling is always between ‘A’ and ‘D’ end couplers (never ‘A’ and ‘A’ or ‘D’ and ‘D’). This ensured the electrical contacts and air pipes would be connected correctly through every single car in the train.   

 

So on most lines a wrong way round train was a rare exception, and one which as modellers we should try to avoid. Now that I’m making a start on an Underground layout I find the East-West orientation problematic so I’m wondering if others have too. On many layouts trains can only be viewed from one side, so should one still lavish the same attention and details to the other side? Or maybe even follow the old Glasgow subway idea of leaving the blind side in “primer”? Certainly it reduces the chances of mistakes if the viewing side is easily recognisable, as we have to convert to left and right on the layout and workbench, and make the opposite calculations for photographs.  

 

Evidence of how confusing it can be is shown by the Radley kits listed as 1931and 1934 standard pre-war tube stock. The 1931 kit has blank panels each side behind the cab, whilst the 1934 kit has large ventilators each side. In reality it’s a mistake because the two types were visually identical, with ventilators behind the driver, and panels on the other side. One way to alleviate the problem is to have one of each and ensure the orientation of the layout suits. In this composite picture the driver’s positions are indicated by tea cans, and this is the only side that will be correct.

 

 

[Lord of Narnia]

Clive you raise a good point re the standard stock. I have spoken to Phil and he is aware of the problem. The best thing to do is to use the 1934 model and panel over one side.

 

I have often thought about which side stock should face. On the layout I am building there is an opportunity for wrong way round trains which is not a problem as I am using cassette fiddle yards! Some modellers paint different liveries on opposite sides. For example tube stock with cream pillars or plain red.

 

Older cars should be the right way round. For example, your Q stock has special locations for the connecting pipes so these will need to be the correct way round even if they are not actually connected.

 

The EFE stock as molded buffing gear so it is important they are the correct way round.

 

Ultimately it is up to the modeller but I like to be as close to the prototype as possible.

[Broadway Clive]

Yes I agree, it makes sense to aim to be as close to the prototype as possible. I know I will always make mistakes and have to make compromises so knowledge of what is correct beforehand becomes even more important. The Radley 1927 stock also has the big ventilators on both sides so should be confined to the same end as the 1934 stock. The Radley 1925 DM also has ventilators both sides, but  this is correct for this type so it can go at either end. Some etched panels to modify the 1927 and 1934 DMs would be rather nice, but I'm not sure Phil would want to go that far. Fortunately the orientation of my layout allows the wrong sides to be kept out of sight so I'll number cars accordingly and leave them alone.

 

With photos of trailers I often find it hard to identify which way round they are, but have noticed that outside door cocks can be a useful indicator as on one side they are near to the start of the car number, and the other side they are near to the end.

 

Apart from the potential to save some work on one side of each car, another advantage of abiding by the A-D rules is that certain handed coupling systems can be used. In place of tube height Wards, on wagons I'm fitting Sergent couplings to one end and cheaper non operational Glatzi couplers at the other (the Sergent opens and closes).

 

I wonder if anyone has a layout that is a mirror image of reality. A friend of mine built a loft layout featuring Edgware Road where West and East were transposed in order to avoid the hatch. It did my head in trying to reconcile what I was seeing, but this could also be true on the real railway. When the Central Line Bethnal Green cabin was re equipped in the late 1990s the track diagram was turned around so it showed the crossover as being past the platforms to the left when it was actually close by on the right!  

[Lord of Narnia]

The 1927 standard stock car I think is closer to a 1924 MCCW car although it will need some modification to create a 1926/27 car.

 

I am building a layout based on Harruw-on-the-Hill although it is not exact it is close.

 

I am also looking to introduce a couple of new models to the standard stock range, a 1923 CL trailer and a 1928 UCC control trailer.

[Broadway Clive]

Thanks your Lordship!   Yes, I maybe should not have put so much faith in Phil's "1927" label! It would be very nice if some if these loose ends were sorted out.

 

Exciting news of your future plans then. More trailer types are always good to add variety, and a curvey UCC car will be a first. 

 

Were you responsible  for the Radley 1925 DM ? Its a much better proportioned front and the destination aperture big enough to display readable words unlike the 1927.

 

Harrow-Models-on-the-Hill would be a nostalgic name for your layout!

[Broadway Clive]

On the subject of Standard Stock, there is a Facebook group run by Brian Hardy that may be of interest

https://www.facebook.com/groups/239119316270938/

[Metr0Land]

On the subject of Standard Stock, there is a Facebook group run by Brian Hardy that may be of interest

https://www.facebook.com/groups/239119316270938/

 

Unfortunately it's not public, you need a FB account

[Lord of Narnia]

I did not have any involvement with the 1925 car it was Arun Sharma who originally produced it in O gauge and shrunk it! Arun does most of Phils O gauge and I think he does a great job too.

 

The 1923 trailer would certainly complete the options for an IOW set and the 1928 car is one that I'm after!

[Lord of Narnia]

I was examining the standard stock in greater detail and it is a common myth that all makes of the stock up to 1934 had a wasteline beading. This is not the case. The car built up to and including 1925 had the waste bead but the rest did not. They also had flush glazing too. There was a join line at the waste and in later life this may have allowed water in and given the impression of a beading line.

 

With this in mind I will need to first modify my converted 1927 trailer when I get it for my 1938 stock set. I will also look into the ride heights and if need be amend them to match the EFE set. I'm planning a 6 car train (it's all I can fit!) with either M-T-M+M-NDM-M (1938-1940), M-T-M+M-58T-M (1940-1947ish) or M-T-M+UNDM-58T-M (from 1952)......

[Broadway Clive]

I was examining the standard stock in greater detail and it is a common myth that all makes of the stock up to 1934 had a wasteline beading. This is not the case. The car built up to and including 1925 had the waste bead but the rest did not. They also had flush glazing too. There was a join line at the waste and in later life this may have allowed water in and given the impression of a beading line.

Not too sure about the complete lack of waist line beading on later Standard Stock except for the short area between the driver's door and the panels or ventilators. Its certainly narrower and much less pronounced  but stlll visible in some pictures, particularly silver painted 1927 trailers running with 1960 DMs for instance. I think its a photographic problem that picks up the shadow of the lower edge and loses the top from some angles. Its more easily seen on the fronts and corners, but its also there along the sides to cover the panel join, but not as a feature, and the thickness of paint, as on L11 at Epping can hide it almost completely. The beading on the kits is indeed from earlier stocks so will need attending to so its a good point that you've raised.

 

Your six car project is certainly more than most people can accomodate and that has really opened up a variety of combinations, all of which I guess will have to face in a particular direction!  

[Lord of Narnia]

I'm going to Acton depot open day at the end of the month so I'll get some photos of the standard stock that is there. There is certainly beading on the front and rear of the cars but the sides are to be confirmed! What this space.

[Metr0Land]

Not sure if this helps with the debate but here are 4 pics I took in March 2011.  (Larger files available on request if it helps anyone)

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord of Narnia]

Thanks for these although one has to be careful with the ex pilot cars as they have had bits added to them to patch over damaged missing sections. I am hoping to get some snaps of the 1927 MCCW ex science museum car which is as withdrawn.

[Arun Sharma]

Rather interestingly the 1923 CL trailer has had all its [previously] very prominent columns of domed rivets sanded off - which, if building one, means hunting for a very early photo of one of these cars. They were in pairs I believe [the rivets, not the cars] and [using the eye of faith] on the grey area on the NSE liveried car, a few scratch marks where some rivets used to be can be seen. Columns of rivets are still vis. on the 1925 Met Cam CT however.

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes the rivets standing proud and waist beading does appear to be a feature of the 1923-25 batches although I wonder why the rivets have been removed on the 1923 trailer? They both ran on the northern city and both went to the Isle of Wight so I'm stumped!

[Broadway Clive]

I was examining the standard stock in greater detail and it is a common myth that all makes of the stock up to 1934 had a wasteline beading. This is not the case. The car built up to and including 1925 had the waste bead but the rest did not. They also had flush glazing too. There was a join line at the waste and in later life this may have allowed water in and given the impression of a beading line.

Just back from the LTM Acton open day, and you are right as far as the 1927 and 1931/4 DMs are concerned. The illusion I saw in photos is caused by the top half panels overlapping the lower ones. I felt with my hand a slight bend of the former over the lower, but its only the proud edge of the panels that show as a line. Grrrrr.....thats more modifications I'll have to make!   

 

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes I was going to add a note. I took a couple of photos to up load. I must admit that I didn't think there was an overlap!

 

I am also about to start to convert the 1925 CT to a 1928 UCC CT.

[Lord of Narnia]

And here are the photos.....

 

 

[bécasse]

Disappearing rivets are often an indication of a complete replacement piece being welded into place. The development of welding techniques during WWII heralded a revolution in railway workshops generally. Rivets may look as if they were evenly spaced, and they were because the riveter marked out the hole centres by going down the rivet line with a pair of dividers, however the dividers were set by hand and the precise spacing and positioning of the rivets varied every time, even on items that look identical.

 

I doubt whether there are any "old school" riveters left alive now, but I can remember one telling me that the worse job they ever had to do was to drill holes in a new replacement part to match extant holes in the part it was offered up to, so that the two could be riveted together. No wonder that they took to welding like ducks to water!

[Lord of Narnia]

You make a great point. There are photos on the LT museum site showing work underway on pre-1938 stock rehabilitation in the late 40s with new panels being welded on! This makes a lot of sense that the oldest cars may have been suffering so those cars not scrapped in 1954 may have had major work done.

[Arun Sharma]

The rivet heads  on the side of the 1923CL trailer at Acton have certainly been filed or ground down but the circular outlines of the rivet shafts are still visible now that all the old  paint layers have been stripped off the car. That suggests that there hadn't been body panel replacement as the cause as replacement panels would not have been spot welded in neat horizontal rows x6 exactly in line with the old rivets. I suspect that if an old pic of the car immediately on delivery to the SR could be found, then it would still have had the rivet heads in place. However a search through "Tube Trains on the IoW" [Capital Transport] doesn't show rivets on the various 1923CL trailers whilst in Blue/Grey livery though it does make the point that the cars underwent several changes of colour scheme over the years.

[Lord of Narnia]

I think this car was on the Northern City and therefore most likely ran through the war so it was protected from the elements which is one of the reasons why much of this stock went to the iow.

 

Interesting about the museum car it appears much as been done over the years.....