The Engine Shed

[grahame]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that Hornby have to engage with the magazines. They don't. There is no god-given right for mags to be given any material or samples by Hornby or anyone else.

 

Nope, again I don't see evidence that anyone is saying or suggesting that - just your interpretation.

 

The impression I get is that Hornby are failing to engage, through relatively cheap and easy media channels, with all enthusiasts and potential customers. There is a misguided assumption that everyone is internet connected and savvy, and clearly they are not. Magazines are just one potential route, not the only alternative or the main thrust of the discussion. It's not about free samples or whatever but communicating widely.

 

G

[asmay2002]

The impression I get is that Hornby are failing to engage, through relatively cheap and easy media channels, with all enthusiasts and potential customers.

 

They don't need to engage with all enthusiasts - just enouigh people to make a profit. 

[Vistisen]

Nope, again I don't see evidence that anyone is saying or suggesting that - just your interpretation.

 

The impression I get is that Hornby are failing to engage, through relatively cheap and easy media channels, with all enthusiasts and potential customers. There is a misguided assumption that everyone is internet connected and savvy, and clearly they are not. Magazines are just one potential route, not the only alternative or the main thrust of the discussion. It's not about free samples or whatever but communicating widely.

 

G

Just done a quick check via Google. According to http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/article/1333599/magazines-abcs-top-100-glancethere are NO model Railway magazines in the top 100 in terms of circulation. Number 100 has a circulation of about 50,000. The best figure I could find for a railway mag was just under 30,000. (I am more than prepared to be corrected ). The thread for Hornby models 2015 has had over 80,000 views. I know that a lots of people have been in more than once,. Prehaps Andy can tell us how many unique views there have been, But lets say that EVERY single person has been there four times, that is still 20,000 views for just one thread. The Hornby P2 thread has 198,000 views! I browse a deal on RMWeb and I subscribe to one magazine. and I suspect that most people on here read magazines as well. So I'm not sure how many people there are whos ONLY source of information comes on paper, and of those how many are active buying customers of Hornby's ( and others ) products. I suspect that Hornby's apparent calculation that they apparently don't need to service the press as they did a few years ago is correct.

[grahame]

They don't need to engage with all enthusiasts - just enouigh people to make a profit.

 

"Just enough" to make a profit is one marginal customer paying the final 1p over total costs which is a precarious position and not a good business model. Loose one customer and you make a loss. I guess they are also looking to maximise profit so while there are easy to engage with potential customers it would be worthwhile seriously consider going for them.

 

Besides the cost of acquiring new customers is far higher than retaining existing customers/enthusiasts and continuing to engage with them. It known as churning your customer base and not dumping them.

 

G.

[grahame]

Just done a quick check via Google. According to http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/article/1333599/magazines-abcs-top-100-glancethere are NO model Railway magazines in the top 100 in terms of circulation. Number 100 has a circulation of about 50,000. The best figure I could find for a railway mag was just under 30,000. (I am more than prepared to be corrected ). The thread for Hornby models 2015 has had over 80,000 views. I know that a lots of people have been in more than once,. Prehaps Andy can tell us how many unique views there have been, But lets say that EVERY single person has been there four times, that is still 20,000 views for just one thread. The Hornby P2 thread has 198,000 views! I browse a deal on RMWeb and I subscribe to one magazine. and I suspect that most people on here read magazines as well. So I'm not sure how many people there are whos ONLY source of information comes on paper, and of those how many are active buying customers of Hornby's ( and others ) products. I suspect that Hornby's apparent calculation that they apparently don't need to service the press as they did a few years ago is correct.

There seems to be an incorrect assumption that it's all about magazines - its not.

 

But, of course, magazines are read by more than just their circulation numbers - consider all those who use Smiths as a reading room and don't purchase, plus for those purchased there are other family members and those passed on to freinds and read in clubs, libraries, etc, and the reports posted on forums, etc.

 

G.

[Fenman]

"Just enough" to make a profit is one marginal customer paying the final 1p over total costs which is a precarious position and not a good business model. Loose one customer and you make a loss. I guess they are also looking to maximise profit so while there are easy to engage with potential customers it would be worthwhile seriously consider going for them.

 

Besides the cost of acquiring new customers is far higher than retaining existing customers/enthusiasts and continuing to engage with them. It known as churning your customer base and not dumping them.

 

G.

Well, yes, but the world is changing. Local model shops are disappearing. More and more is bought through the web - including direct. Some manufacturers are only selling through direct pre-orders (how are you going to use magazine reviews to help you make purchase decisions about those products?!). And we know that, usually, a small number of customers provide most of the profits; if they're anything like most businesses, I'd guess some of Hornby's customers generate actual losses for the company.

 

The point is we don't know.

 

We do know Hornby were making massive losses and not manufacturing any product. "Business as usual" was obviously going to be a fast track to oblivion. We know a new management team has come in and promised to turn it around. And we know the flow of product has dramatically increased in quantity; the quality seems to be going up; and the most recent financial report was less grisly than the previous one.

 

So, some people may not like some of the new approach. I'd say it looks to me, as a punter, as if things are going in the right direction. And since none of us has access to the marketing data that Hornby has, I don't see how you can say "but if they did X it would cost nothing and make them tons of money".

 

Paul

[dibber25]

Yep, updating magazines and forums with an email is a cheap, quick and easy method of communicating and marketing.

 

I think its absence is more about attitude rather than marketing budget constraints. After all, unless they advertise in the magazine, they are hardly contributing to commercial magazines costs of printing and distribution of any news items.

 

G.

Yes, yes, yes. Including a string of e-mail addresses on a list and mailing all of them in one go costs next to nothing. Rapido, a tiny company compared to Hornby, does it frequently. Bachmann has a professional press and PR department, others at least have a point of contact between themselves and the model press. Only Hornby does not.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Ian Hargrave]

At this point in the discussion,I wonder if anyone can inform us whether or not Hornby take advertising space in any of the current model rail magazines....or has that too been discarded ?

[grahame]

.

So, some people may not like some of the new approach.

 

 

I think it's not so much about liking or disliking a new approach - if it gains additional business then its acceptable - but is more that they have also ditched other communications and marketing channels. All that does is alienate and disfranchise enthusiasts who were presumably once customers.

 

G.

Edited October 18, 2015 by grahame

[ruggedpeak]

The point is we don't know.

 

Paul

Absolutely, we don't have the details. So criticising Hornby for not engaging with or pandering to mags is pointless unless you have actual real evidence that it is wrong as you can demonstrate an impact on sale or profits. And I know from direct (and costly) experience that in some sectors magazines are not a worthwhile or effective form of marketing.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Including a string of e-mail addresses on a list and mailing all of them in one go costs next to nothing. Rapido, a tiny company compared to Hornby, does it frequently. Bachmann has a professional press and PR department, others at least have a point of contact between themselves and the model press. Only Hornby does not.

CHRIS LEIGH

But we have gone full circle. So what if Hornby don't pander to your needs? That is their business decision. Makes a lot fo sense since there is significant duplication within the mags and it is expensive to try and service them all. That Bachmann or Rapido do is great, but why criticise Hornby for having a different marketing strategy? Magazines are being commoditised by their publishers and increasingly generic. Fair play to Model Rail for a bit of innovation with its 'Ultimate Realism' issue - very interesting and different from the usual reviews and repetitive layouts. That is what mags should be doing, innovating and adapting rather than complaining that they are not the be all and end all. I suspect there is some griping that magazines are in effect being challenged to demonstrate their worth. I think this thread just shows that the Engine Shed is working and delivering, and is infinitely cheaper and possibly more effective.

 

It is getting a bit like the Uber v Black Cab debate! Mags need to adapt to the new reality, which means that not all major players necessarily need them in the same way they once did.

[ruggedpeak]

I think it's not so much about liking or disliking a new approach - if it gains additional business then its acceptable - but is more that they have also ditched other communications and marketing channels. All that does is alienate and disfranchise enthusiasts who were presumably once customers.

 

G.

But does it - what evidence do you have to support this assertion? Who is alienated and has it dramatically changed their buying habits, or demonstrably affected Hornby sales?

[The Stationmaster]

Well, yes, but the world is changing. Local model shops are disappearing. More and more is bought through the web - including direct. Some manufacturers are only selling through direct pre-orders (how are you going to use magazine reviews to help you make purchase decisions about those products?!). And we know that, usually, a small number of customers provide most of the profits; if they're anything like most businesses, I'd guess some of Hornby's customers generate actual losses for the company.

 

The point is we don't know.

 

We do know Hornby were making massive losses and not manufacturing any product. "Business as usual" was obviously going to be a fast track to oblivion. We know a new management team has come in and promised to turn it around. And we know the flow of product has dramatically increased in quantity; the quality seems to be going up; and the most recent financial report was less grisly than the previous one.

 

So, some people may not like some of the new approach. I'd say it looks to me, as a punter, as if things are going in the right direction. And since none of us has access to the marketing data that Hornby has, I don't see how you can say "but if they did X it would cost nothing and make them tons of money".

 

Paul

Ah but the starting point is also important isn't it.  Hornby at the moment is a 'name' that means something (even if it's wrong) to the grandad and uncle buyers of presents for children but they're probably falling of the perch at the same rate as older railway modellers.  New modellers (mostly using the 'net I would presume) and returnees to the hobby now they have the time/money area different market and they might not know the value of the brand and its products and how far they can 'trust' it.  And a big part of PR/media relations/call it what you will is building and developing that trust - Bachmann has done it (despite some occasional problems - usually smoothly dealt with) and has established itself a particular brand and 'value' position.  Hornby won't be able to live on its name forever and that is when establishing brand trust becomes as important as self-promoted image.

 

And let's not forget (although it still seems to have some internal confusion) that for its higher return products Hornby is now moving into a similar marketing position as many of the newcomers and commissioners - what often amounts to smaller numbers of models but offering the company a higher individual return per item than the old mass market approach measured in tens of thousands. Great for many of us that it is doing something like that but it is a market area where perception and information coupled with trust can become very important especially when chasing shrunken wallets and bank accounts.

[ruggedpeak]

At this point in the discussion,I wonder if anyone can inform us whether or not Hornby take advertising space in any of the current model rail magazines....or has that too been discarded ?

It is limited. I get 3 or 4 mags a month, and Hornby ads have been limited to a one page ad either selling off remaining Javelins and Tata 60's, or in current issues a full page advertising the Xmas train set (which has gone out of stock again). Not exactly targetted at specialist readers. I can only guess that they are placing an ad so keep some relationship with the mags, but are of the view that money spent advertising one or two new products is probably wasted.

 

This will in part be due to the ongoing supply chain issues regarding delivery of product. Firstly they are probably not yet able to be confident of delivery dates for new products, or how they will sell. So placing an ad a month or two in advance for a product would be a risk of money, because the ad may run with no product available (and imagine the frothing then!) or the product arrives and sells fast so the ad just upsets punters who see it and can no longer get it (imagine the froth then!). So why spend money on ads etc when it is doubtful, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, advertising or magazine orientated PR will generate any meaningful return.

 

Let's move on from thinking magazines are the critical or only part of the marketing/comms process that they might have once been. Magazines are a business like any other, and if they think Hornby should be sending them (again the costs explained by SK) samples and regular updates (bit tricky when Hornby's own due dates keep shifting - how much will editors complain when they get an email saying the new loco X is coming in October and turns into January, which is then published in a mag and is out of date before publication) then the magazines need to demonstrate they offer a cost effective process that meets Hornby's marketing strategy. All I've seen so far is complaints and criticism.

[Ian Hargrave]

I only asked.............

[jjb1970]

I don't think anybody is advocating or wishing for the demise of magazines. I'm guessing most of buy magazines. The question is how much engagement Hornby should have with magazines.

 

The pre-order imperative seems to have calmed down a bit now with stock lingering for long enough to make a decision about buying after you see an example of the model but even so some companies such as Rapido use an all pre-order model where you have to order up front on trust. Personally, and I'll admit that this is just personal opinion, I don't like magazines being too cosey with the companies they report on.

 

From a Hornby perspective, their analysis is probably that the de-facto standard medium for sharing news in the Internet so it is natural for them to make the web their priority. That doesn't mean magazines are dead but it does mean that how people get news has changed.

 

For those that can't access the internet then the magazines are still there, as is the Hornby catalogue. Most libraries offer web access either for free or for a low charge for people without access to the web at home. For those who make a conscious decision not to have anything to do with the web then they really can't complain that a consequence of that decision is that they'll cut themselves off from a lot of information.

[ruggedpeak]

Ah but the starting point is also important isn't it.  Hornby at the moment is a 'name' that means something (even if it's wrong) to the grandad and uncle buyers of presents for children but they're probably falling of the perch at the same rate as older railway modellers.  New modellers (mostly using the 'net I would presume) and returnees to the hobby now they have the time/money area different market and they might not know the value of the brand and its products and how far they can 'trust' it.  And a big part of PR/media relations/call it what you will is building and developing that trust - Bachmann has done it (despite some occasional problems - usually smoothly dealt with) and has established itself a particular brand and 'value' position.  Hornby won't be able to live on its name forever and that is when establishing brand trust becomes as important as self-promoted image.

Hornby isn't living off its name in my view. It is trying to get its supply chain and processes sorted out to deliver products. I am increasingly of the view that overt Hornby marketing spend and activity is effectively on hold during this time due in part to uncertainty of supply timing. Mags still have longish lead times, and we can clearly see Hornby due dates are fluid, so an email sent to editors and then used to publish info that may be out of date the following week would not be well received.

 

I also suspect that Hornby will re-engage when they have something more definitive and stable to offer. But if I were them I'd be getting editors in to say "If you want samples and full engagement (at considerable cost compared to social media) what is in it for us and demonstrate your effectiveness as a sales and PR tool." Exactly as they presumably do with ads.

 

Trust is a curious concept, and of questionable relevance in today's media landscape. Buzz is arguably more important for younger people and newbies - and Engine Shed delivers that in a way no mag can match. Look at the Peckett thread. Modern PR beautifully executed.

 

My reading on here and elsewhere is that most non-trainset modellers will buy the products they either really want, or which become desireable due to excellent quality etc.  A simple test that might work - get a mag to do a detailed review of the Royal Class 67 that has not sold at all well. Let's see if a review (I assume which would be positive as it is a good model) clears the presumably substantial remaining stock.

[ruggedpeak]

I don't think anybody is advocating or wishing for the demise of magazines. I'm guessing most of buy magazines. The question is how much engagement Hornby should have with magazines.

100% agree. Apparently I buy [far] too many print mags each month (and have a garage filled with car mags!), but that's just her opinion .

 

Mags play an important role, but arguably the idea that a major manufacturer must engage with them is outdated in the current media landscape. A professional marketer should be saying "does this activity actually generate profits or other value", not simply doing it because that is what has always been done.

 

Credit to Hornby for yet again innovating and challenging the status quo yet again.

[Vistisen]

What we seem to need is an online poll to find the number of moddellers who will never see the online poll 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Vistiaen

[dibber25]

At this point in the discussion,I wonder if anyone can inform us whether or not Hornby take advertising space in any of the current model rail magazines....or has that too been discarded ?

Model Rail's current issue 'The Aeroplane Special" has a full-page Airfix ad from Hornby. They are not advertising railway models to 'railway people' but looking to attract people from different disciplines.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Ian Hargrave]

Model Rail's current issue 'The Aeroplane Special" has a full-page Airfix ad from Hornby. They are not advertising railway models to 'railway people' but looking to attract people from different disciplines.

CHRIS LEIGH

So happy to buy advertising space.Is this on a regular ongoing basis ?

[dibber25]

Just done a quick check via Google. According to http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/article/1333599/magazines-abcs-top-100-glancethere are NO model Railway magazines in the top 100 in terms of circulation. Number 100 has a circulation of about 50,000. The best figure I could find for a railway mag was just under 30,000. (I am more than prepared to be corrected ). The thread for Hornby models 2015 has had over 80,000 views. I know that a lots of people have been in more than once,. Prehaps Andy can tell us how many unique views there have been, But lets say that EVERY single person has been there four times, that is still 20,000 views for just one thread. The Hornby P2 thread has 198,000 views! I browse a deal on RMWeb and I subscribe to one magazine. and I suspect that most people on here read magazines as well. So I'm not sure how many people there are whos ONLY source of information comes on paper, and of those how many are active buying customers of Hornby's ( and others ) products. I suspect that Hornby's apparent calculation that they apparently don't need to service the press as they did a few years ago is correct.

Of course there are no model railway magazines in the top 100 for Abc circulation! There are lots of magazines which cover huge topics - golf, cars, women's lifestyle etc - and sell 100s of thousands of copies. They attract large amounts of advertising and earn big profits for their publishers, at least when times are good. Model railway magazines are not in that league, but in the area of specialist and niche titles. A quick look at Abc website shows:

Railway Modeller 39,258, Hornby Magazine 34,022, Model Rail 26,988 (all monthly circulations for Jan-Dec 2014). BRM is not a member of Abc so there's no figure. A rule-of-thumb in the magazine industry is that every copy is read by 2.5 people. (I guess some may be in doctors' waiting rooms many months after publication!) 

I still feel that the point of my comments is being missed. The model railway magazines support and promote the hobby and they support and promote the activities of the manufacturers. It's a close-knit 'family' - the modellers, the model media (print and internet), the model manufacturers. We all need each other. On the magazines that I've worked on (since 1963) we've had direct communication with Margate since the days of phone calls to/from Richard LInes. Whether it was the launch of N gauge (Hornby introduced Lima N gauge into the UK), 'OO' live steam, Railmaster or just next year's catalogue contents, there was always communication and involvement with the media. That is no longer the case, and even the non-print media such as RMweb are having to rely on getting information third-hand, via someone who happens to have stumbled across something elsewhere on the internet. 

 

So happy to buy advertising space.Is this on a regular ongoing basis ?

Sorry, I don't have that information and if I did, it would be confidential.

Edited October 18, 2015 by dibber25

[Vistisen]

Of course there are no model railway magazines in the top 100 for Abc circulation! There are lots of magazines which cover huge topics - golf, cars, women's lifestyle etc - and sell 100s of thousands of copies. They attract large amounts of advertising and earn big profits for their publishers, at least when times are good. Model railway magazines are not in that league, but in the area of specialist and niche titles. A quick look at Abc website shows:

Railway Modeller 39,258, Hornby Magazine 34,022, Model Rail 26,988 (all monthly circulations for Jan-Dec 2014). BRM is not a member of Abc so there's no figure. A rule-of-thumb in the magazine industry is that every copy is read by 2.5 people. (I guess some may be in doctors' waiting rooms many months after publication!) 

I still feel that the point of my comments is being missed. The model railway magazines support and promote the hobby and they support and promote the activities of the manufacturers. It's a close-knit 'family' - the modellers, the model media (print and internet), the model manufacturers. We all need each other. On the magazines that I've worked on (since 1963) we've had direct communication with Margate since the days of phone calls to/from Richard LInes. Whether it was the launch of N gauge (Hornby introduced Lima N gauge into the UK), 'OO' live steam, Railmaster or just next year's catalogue contents, there was always communication and involvement with the media. That is no longer the case, and even the non-print media such as RMweb are having to rely on getting information third-hand, via someone who happens to have stumbled across something elsewhere on the internet. 

 

Sorry, I don't have that information and if I did, it would be confidential.

My quick look was obviously not good enough to find the figures you provided, Thanks for that. I think that the issue of the place of magazines in the future is to some extent the same as the debat about the role of the local modelshop in the age of online shops, or bookshops versus Amazon. The internet has a tendancy to cut out the middleman. We may not like it, but it is a fact. We can see from history there were people who thought that the invention of the printing press destroyed the market for handwritten book, or that there should be a man with a red flag in front of cars. Everything has it's time and place. I think that what makes it harder to understand and accept is the the pace of change seems to be forever increasing. Even BlockBuster ( who was accused of destroying the cinema) has gone bust because of streaming services.

On a more positive note I DO think that there is a place for magazines. I am inspired by looking at other peoples work, and some of the 'how to' articles have helped me a lot. The fact that that there is not much on the news pages that I have not already read on the net does not stop me from buying the magazine. I have bought every issue for Hornby magazine since the first, and I love looking back through them to provide a snapshot of what the model railway world looked like at that moment in time. I can still read a review of the Hornby Schools class or the Bachmann Deltic prototype and get pleasure from it now.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Vistiaen

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

What Hornby appear to be doing is selecting the cheapest channel not the one that leads to the most affluent customers. And even targetting affluent customers is not the best approach - the ideal audience is those with the greatest propensity to spent, rather than just those with most wealth and awareness. Growing your customer base is a better long term solution than scaling back on communicating.

 

That's your opinion. I am as laissez-faire as they come and take the attitude that Hornby's management are in place to do the best job they can for shareholders, and everything else second. They appear to have a major hit with their new market engagement approach, and if it leaves other commercial operations somewhat out in the cold: well, like it or no, that's fully their decision to make. We can judge in succeeding years whether it was a good or bad decision, on the evidence of trading performance. And there is every prospect of further change as the market environment alters over time. I don't see the present state as 'forever'; and the prizes will go to those who can anticipate what comes next, instead of regretting what was.

[Ozexpatriate]

I think its absence is more about attitude rather than marketing budget constraints. After all, unless they advertise in the magazine, they are hardly contributing to commercial magazines costs of printing and distribution of any news items.

Yes to your first observation, but I do expect they are also under a pretty heavy self-imposed expense control regime. (More comments below.) This likely effects any marketing budget which would include advertising, trade shows, etc.

The impression I get is that Hornby are failing to engage, through relatively cheap and easy media channels, with all enthusiasts and potential customers. There is a misguided assumption that everyone is internet connected and savvy, and clearly they are not. Magazines are just one potential route, not the only alternative or the main thrust of the discussion.

They don't need to engage with all enthusiasts - just enouigh people to make a profit.

Let's remember that they are not profitable, yet. They have underlying profitability (turnover exceeds cost of operations) but they do have to be careful about expenses right now. Based on models coming on line, they are evidently investing in product development, which is good news.

 

There is a real cost to preparing additional collateral to share with the trade press but at the end of the day my tea leaves (and I have zero inside knowledge) indicate to me this discussion is probably not so much about budgets and marketing spend as it is about how they want to communicate - hence Chris' observations.

 

I still feel that the point of my comments is being missed. The model railway magazines support and promote the hobby and they support and promote the activities of the manufacturers. It's a close-knit 'family' - the modellers, the model media (print and internet), the model manufacturers. We all need each other.

Yes. Edited October 19, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

The thread for Hornby models 2015 has had over 80,000 views. I know that a lots of people have been in more than once,. Prehaps Andy can tell us how many unique views there have been, But lets say that EVERY single person has been there four times, that is still 20,000 views for just one thread. The Hornby P2 thread has 198,000 views!

Compared to 80,000 views, we only(?) have 27,179 members*. "Views" is not a meaningful measurement. Many people look at that sort of thread several times a day when the thread is busy.

 

* Pretty cool compared with the magazine circulation numbers that Chris provided I think. I find it interesting that they have similar orders of magnitude. (I don't think that's a coincidence.) It would be great to know what that Venn Diagram looks like.

 

What we seem to need is an online poll to find the number of moddellers who will never see the online poll 

The marketeers' constant dilemma. How big is my market and how can I reach them? Edited October 19, 2015 by Ozexpatriate