Ozexpatriate Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Hornby at the moment is a 'name' that means something (even if it's wrong) to the grandad and uncle buyers of presents for children but they're probably falling of the perch at the same rate as older railway modellers. Hornby isn't living off its name in my view. It is trying to get its supply chain and processes sorted out to deliver products. Surely they can be doing both at the same time? They have a great brand and that brand's reputation gives them some momentum in difficult times. But yes they are trying to fix things as well as trotting out this or this sort of thing. I am increasingly of the view that overt Hornby marketing spend and activity is effectively on hold during this time due in part to uncertainty of supply timing. Yes, but for expense control reasons rather than supply chain issues. They need to return to profitability. That is the number one focus for the PLC. Edited October 19, 2015 by Ozexpatriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Compared to 80,000 views, we only(?) have 27,179 members*. "Views" is not a meaningful measurement. Many people look at that sort of thread several times a day when the thread is busy. * Pretty cool compared with the magazine circulation numbers that Chris provided I think. I find it interesting that they have similar orders of magnitude. (I don't think that's a coincidence.) It would be great to know what that Venn Diagram looks like. The marketeers' constant dilemma. How big is my market and how can I reach them? Where does that 27,179 figure come from? Is it all people who have ever been members? Current ACTIVE members? ALL current members? Are they independently audited figures? In magazines, if you're ABC audited you are only allowed to use that figure for circulation and you have to state the relevant year. NOT being an ABC member means you can massage figures or quote readership or print-run figures, which may be more impressive but don't reflect the actual number of copies sold. I'm not sure how it works with forums and web-sites - how the figures are arrived at or whether there's any way to verify their accuracy. Would be interesting to know. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Where does that 27,179 figure come from? Is it all people who have ever been members? Current ACTIVE members? ALL current members? Are they independently audited figures? Chris, in order of your questions: The front page of RMweb: I presume it is mostly this. I don't know whether it counts 'closed' accounts. Don't know - how do you define "active" members of a voluntary online community? Don't know. Probably not. The data point is presumably calculated by the software. It's not the same as magazine 'circulation' for advertising purposes. As an order of magnitude data point I found it interesting. You can ask Andy York for confirmation. Edited October 19, 2015 by Ozexpatriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Where does that 27,179 figure come from? Is it all people who have ever been members? Current ACTIVE members? ALL current members? Are they independently audited figures? In magazines, if you're ABC audited you are only allowed to use that figure for circulation and you have to state the relevant year. NOT being an ABC member means you can massage figures or quote readership or print-run figures, which may be more impressive but don't reflect the actual number of copies sold. I'm not sure how it works with forums and web-sites - how the figures are arrived at or whether there's any way to verify their accuracy. Would be interesting to know. CHRIS LEIGH The figure comes from the bottom of the index page which shows the total number of registered members which includes about 75% of the (appx 9,000) members on the previous incarnation of the site (pre Oct 2009) plus those who re-registered from the remaining 25% plus anyone who's registered since. There will be a number of duplicates from people who've lost their original login details or duplicate accounts created for less than honest reasons. It's possible to see how many people are currently (within the last 15 mins) reading the site and it's normally made up of around 40% registered members logged in and 60% non-members. The number of unique visitors according to Google Analytics is 130,000 to 180,000 per month depending on seasonality. I'll be the first to say this isn't an accurate record of the real number of readers as it's based on IP addresses so anyone reading from home, work, their mobile or their tablet would be counted more than once and then there's the dynamic IP addresses allocated by ISPs which means the same user sat at the same PC may be counted more than once in any given timeframe. I think a more realistic assessment is to divide Google's UV figure by 2.5 or even 3 to get a more realistic number of readers. I've tried to come up with every website I can think of within the hobby and measure the rankings on Alexa.com (Amazon's website for measuring web traffic) and RMweb still sits in third spot worldwide behind Model Railroader and Kato. That's as honest as I can be about it. Hornby is moving up those same rankings so more people are certainly using their site than before but I looked around this weekend's show and I'd genuinely say there were more mag readers than website users in the halls. I'm sure if you ask an average crowd "How many of you use the internet?" probably 80% would stick their hands up; ask them how many use the internet in connect with their hobby and I'd reckon half would put their hands down etc etc. It all just seems so barmy that a company which is pushing forward from a difficult position has chosen not to communicate with the majority of the hobby's media print or online. Yes, they may be doing good things but I have not read anything which can realistically explain why any business would walk away from communicating with an existing channel. And for the avoidance of doubt one more time and I'm in complete agreement with you Chris; it's not about free samples. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2015 Yes, but for expense control reasons rather than supply chain issues. They need to return to profitability. That is the number one focus for the PLC. Exactly so - one only has to look at the way their new organisation has been structured (and how it is populated if you have the ways & means to do so) and it is pretty clear there was an executive decision to change the way their marketing worked and, reading between the lines of their accounts, to reduce managerial etc costs. If the cutback in various areas of marketing activity is due to production problems then their next full accounts and associated information would theoretically show a growth in marketing staff numbers and broadening of marketing activity as the supply chain improves. Interestingly with some very marketable and more expensive (=more profitable) models coming to market in recent months and promised for next year their marketing relationship with the model railway media seems not to have changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The figure comes from the bottom of the index page which shows the total number of registered members which includes about 75% of the (appx 9,000) members on the previous incarnation of the site (pre Oct 2009) plus those who re-registered from the remaining 25% plus anyone who's registered since. There will be a number of duplicates from people who've lost their original login details or duplicate accounts created for less than honest reasons. It's possible to see how many people are currently (within the last 15 mins) reading the site and it's normally made up of around 40% registered members logged in and 60% non-members. The number of unique visitors according to Google Analytics is 130,000 to 180,000 per month depending on seasonality. I'll be the first to say this isn't an accurate record of the real number of readers as it's based on IP addresses so anyone reading from home, work, their mobile or their tablet would be counted more than once and then there's the dynamic IP addresses allocated by ISPs which means the same user sat at the same PC may be counted more than once in any given timeframe. I think a more realistic assessment is to divide Google's UV figure by 2.5 or even 3 to get a more realistic number of readers. I've tried to come up with every website I can think of within the hobby and measure the rankings on Alexa.com (Amazon's website for measuring web traffic) and RMweb still sits in third spot worldwide behind Model Railroader and Kato. That's as honest as I can be about it. ... I don't know whether the software would be capable of calculating it this way (and indeed whether you'd want to reveal the answer, if it could!), but I'd have thought a fair but sufficiently broad definition of an "active" member of RMWeb is one who has looked at the site at least once in the last three months. And conversely, that in order not to fudge the figures - not least to yourselves - any website like this should be automatically removing from 'membership' (or at least auto-generating an e-mail to check the intentions of) anyone who hasn't looked at the site in the last 12 months. If they haven't, over that timescale, it would surely be a reasonable presumption to say they'd died, grown too old or ill to care, found a better 'ole, or taken-up modelling the Titanic in matchsticks instead. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 And conversely, that in order not to fudge the figures It would be a largely manual exercise to calculate such figures on currency of activity but the raw data from Google is more meaningful on overall usage of the site. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronny Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I subscribed to modeling magazines for decades. Pretty much all of them at one time or another (never Hornby tho). Airfix was my favorite for many years, especially when they had regular railway content. Also Model Rail. But two things happened. I found I was reading the magazines less and less. I was getting news from the internet so there was never, ever any surprises when I finally got round to ripping off the plastic. In fact it was kind of silly. Blaring headlines about an exclusive story or scoop referred to something that was old hat. And if I wanted advice on how to solve the tricky modeling problem du jour, it was a heck of a business going through thousands of stacked magazines looking for the right reference. Google was instant. Forums took a bit longer to respond but still a shed load easier. Plenty to chose from. The second thing was that I retired and money came in shorter supply. These magazine subscriptions started to look rather expensive. Especially after paying through the nose to have them shipped here to the US. So I Iet my last subscription (to Model Rail) lapse without renewal. No withdrawal symptoms. I get regular emails from the manufacturers and leading retailers. I get notification of Facebook posts or manufacturer blog updates (like Engine shed). All manufacturers seem to post the latest news there. I logon and read forums like this once in a while when I'm in the mood. I feel better informed. All for the princely sum of exactly nothing. So no, for me at least, there is no need for Hornby or anyone else to spend money on communicating with the printed or online press. I say use the money to produce more and better models. Which they appear to be doing! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It would be a largely manual exercise to calculate such figures on currency of activity but the raw data from Google is more meaningful on overall usage of the site. There are many imponderables in this business. It would be good to know how many 'readers' read the things that interest them in Smiths but never actually buy a magazine. Are they part of the 2.5 readers per copy that constitute 'readership' rather than circulation? It would be good to devise a poll which reached those who DON't read the magazine (but who might) rather than only ever reaching the faithful regulars or those whose names and addresses you've got because they are lapsed subscribers. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2015 There are many imponderables in this business. It would be good to know how many 'readers' read the things that interest them in Smiths but never actually buy a magazine. Are they part of the 2.5 readers per copy that constitute 'readership' rather than circulation? It would be good to devise a poll which reached those who DON't read the magazine (but who might) rather than only ever reaching the faithful regulars or those whose names and addresses you've got because they are lapsed subscribers. CHRIS LEIGH A poll question which might be feasible (presumably as part of regular reader research) is asking people why they don't read or buy a particular magazine? I suspect that part of MR's long term selling strength is its continuation (in effect, and in one respect of personnel ) of the excellent level and quality of reviews which characterised 'the Constructor' and that might even be why competitors have copied or tried to copy that feature. That I think still has a place in model railway journalism - on paper or pixels - and in many respects doesn't have over much to do with 'news' because the only way a monthly magazine can tackle 'news' is to look at it in greater depth, scoops will be rare in the Facebook age. Any other news is best dealt with in exactly the way some printed magazine have already adopted - a few column inches and a small picture to help keep up to date those who don't spend any or much time delving round the 'net. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 A poll question which might be feasible (presumably as part of regular reader research) is asking people why they don't read or buy a particular magazine? Which makes me wonder what happened to this idea? (Now is of course not a good time with the annual wish list poll just around the corner.) At some point down the road I think it's a good idea. The biggest question is one of scope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Which makes me wonder what happened to this idea? (Now is of course not a good time with the annual wish list poll just around the corner.) I lost a load of time down the back of the sofa but I'd still like to do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2015 Oddly enough I sat in a meeting this week which was almost an exact replica of the debate seen in this thread regarding the value of web based communication versus printed materials. My employer has taken a decision to cease printing and distributing printed books and materials and is going over to all electronic material. This is not just web based either, for conferences and meetings it has been agreed to distribute USB flash drives loaded up with the materials which would once have been printed along with giving people a few GB of free memory to do with as they please. That is apparently a lot cheaper than printing and has been very well received. Clearly an industrial trade association is not a hobby magazine and I don't want to make too much of it but it was spooky to listen to just how similar the arguments were to those seen in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2015 Indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Oddly enough I sat in a meeting this week which was almost an exact replica of the debate seen in this thread regarding the value of web based communication versus printed materials. My employer has taken a decision to cease printing and distributing printed books and materials and is going over to all electronic material. This is not just web based either, for conferences and meetings it has been agreed to distribute USB flash drives loaded up with the materials which would once have been printed along with giving people a few GB of free memory to do with as they please. That is apparently a lot cheaper than printing and has been very well received. Clearly an industrial trade association is not a hobby magazine and I don't want to make too much of it but it was spooky to listen to just how similar the arguments were to those seen in this thread. The company I last worked for decided to do the same thing - circulating all reports. etc. electronically. What actually happened was most recipients printed everything off on their network colour laser printers negating any savings! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The company I last worked for decided to do the same thing - circulating all reports. etc. electronically. What actually happened was most recipients printed everything off on their network colour laser printers negating any savings! Yes, I remember working for a publisher who liked to send faxes but to receive letters. That way it was always someone else's paper being used! CHRIS LEIGH 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty.J Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Latest edition here http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/the-king-the-final-chapter/ So far we've had 3 locomotives and 2 ranges of coaches announced so far. This leaves the wagons for December now. I wonder what Hornby has in store. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 13, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2015 Wow what a let down this weeks engine shed is. Basically a history of the SR Light Pacifics, which is available anywhere, and telling they are on their way. I thought they would actually update us on some other models that are under development, namely the Thomas range, but instead they give us a delivery date. Very disappointed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2015 Wow what a let down this weeks engine shed is. Basically a history of the SR Light Pacifics, which is available anywhere, and telling they are on their way. I thought they would actually update us on some other models that are under development, namely the Thomas range, but instead they give us a delivery date. Very disappointed. Just remember that there are many eagerly looking forward to these . The first run for many years,apart from the now notorious Exeter. Can't have sweeties every time can we ?It would be boring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 13, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2015 That's fine but the blog doesn't show anything other than a history, which is on every loco page on their website, and also a delivery date, which is also on the models page on the website. Not exactly development news is it. A look at the manufacturing of the locos would be good even. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Actually I was beginning to wonder whether they would have enough news to keep a two weekly blog going. Not a criticism by the way just an observation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2015 Just remember that there are many eagerly looking forward to these . The first run for many years,apart from the now notorious Exeter. Can't have sweeties every time can we ?It would be boring. Thinking of joining up to get 'Manston'. I have the previous one with cut-down tender but the prototype was very late in being thus treated and the new one fits my period better. I already have a set of plates to turn my old one into 34063 '229 Squadron'. 'Bude' will be the star of the show for me but 'Exeter' in air-smoothed form falls well outside my modelling period. I must get the book out and see what I could turn it into.......... If Hornby so fancied, they could have a third go at Manston as her tender received the late emblem before being cut down; probably what I'll do to mine if I get one. The combo a lot of us would really like but Hornby have not yet produced is one of the wide-cab locos in late condition with a cut-down 4500 gallon tender. It wouldn't require any new tooling so, hopefully, they will get round to one eventually. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Curious. If the Hornby models are to be believed, when Ron Jarvis designed the rebuilds, he omitted flanges on the trailing wheels. It must have led to poor riding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted November 13, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2015 Curious. If the Hornby models are to be believed, when Ron Jarvis designed the rebuilds, he omitted flanges on the trailing wheels. It must have led to poor riding. and of course we could take that the n'th degree and say that they would have also fallen between the rails as the wheels would have been too close together, let along needing electricity to move... grabs coat... 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 and of course we could take that the n'th degree and say that they would have also fallen between the rails as the wheels would have been too close together, let along needing electricity to move... grabs coat... Well, not quite. IMHO, it's more like producing everything to P4 standards and then changing to 00. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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