Piko SmartControl

[Mike Storey]

Hi Mike,

 

Are you thinking of using the new handheld with a 611 by any chance as it won't work.

 

The new handheld for the ECoS will only work with the ECoS

 

No. I need total mobility, with full functionality, for the layout I am building (which has not got far yet due to other problems with the barn in which it will reside), and only something like the Piko will do.

[Mike Storey]

Yes I have been watching the ZTC saga since its release, such a great idea with very limited funding often results in incomplete execution, which has been my conclusion since the start.

 

I really wished it had a better human interface for programming along the lines of a large (or satellite) screen similar to the ECoS but the actual driving interface remained those lovely "knobs, buttons and levers"........life is a compromise, what I spend my money on should not be 

 

Too true, but if they ever get it right (a full display screen is on the cards, with better interface) then it should be a strong contender for many, but it looks like that is some time away as yet. I regret not being able to support a British make for now, but hope that the ProtoCab evolves into something useful for 00/EM but it looks like its forte will be for 0 and larger initially.

[Dogmatix]

I was at a local (Berlin) model shop last week, where they had a demonstration from ESU of their new Mobile Control II system. The MC2 was on sale, packaged with a WLAN access point, which you need to connect it to your ECoS system, at €299.99; or without, for those who already have the access point unit, at €279.99. The ECoS base system costs €599.99. Supplies will be hitting the shops this week; but the demonstrator said that initial supplies would be limited, so advised to get one quick (but then, he would say that....).

 

I asked about the Piko version. The base station, he said, was a slimmed-down version, basically built on the same PCB but with some components missing and in a different box. Unlike the ECoS, it can only handle DCC (which is fine by me). The handsets are the same, and have the same app, he said - an ESU-branded handset will work with the Piko-branded base station. This might be interesting, seeing as the Pico-branded handset costs €349.99 (the base station costs €399.99). There are also single-train packs at €499.99, and a two-train pack at €599.99.

 

I also asked about usability with the Roco Z21 (I myself have a Z21, connected to a Roco point control unit and an ESU Mobile Control (original type) with two handsets, and a couple of Roco LokMice for when my friend's kids visit - I have found that I rather use the MC units than a smartphone with the Z21 app!). He said the API's for programming an app to use the motorised knob are available, so if Roco want to adapt their Z21 app, they are quite welcome to do so. As it is, the Z21 app will work on the MC2, but not the knob won't work. The question is, can Roco be bothered? Perhaps we should keep bothering them about it....

[Dogmatix]

Question: the Piko base station has a Loconet-T connector at the back. Can I connect Roco LokMice and a Roco point control unit to this, either directly or via an adapter of some sort? Or would I be better off flogging those and getting some cheap 'n' simple Loconet hand unit for kids to use? Does such exist? Needs control knob, loco selection, F1 to F4 & lights.

[Nigelcliffe]

Question: the Piko base station has a Loconet-T connector at the back. Can I connect Roco LokMice and a Roco point control unit to this, either directly or via an adapter of some sort? Or would I be better off flogging those and getting some cheap 'n' simple Loconet hand unit for kids to use? Does such exist? Needs control knob, loco selection, F1 to F4 & lights.

 

LocoNet is the Digitrax network system, the main European maker using it is Uhlenbrock.  

Roco uses XpressNet (Lenz' protocol). 

LocoNet and Xpressnet are completely different and you can't connect them (well you can, but it means putting a computer in the middle to translate).

 

 

Simple and cheap LocoNet throttles:  Two commercially, the Digitrax UT4 or Uhlenbrock Fred.   The UT4 has fiddly little wheels to select loco address, once the loco is selected it works nicely.  The Fred gets a loco after "dispatching" the loco from another controller, and then asking the Fred to collect the dispatched loco.    I use a Fred regularly as the demonstration/guest handset, the user can't select another loco and its completely unintimidating.    Freds can also be DIY built from kits or from published designs.

[Dogmatix]

LocoNet and Xpressnet are completely different and you can't connect them (well you can, but it means putting a computer in the middle to translate).

Just discovered the Uhlenbrock Lokmaus Adapter (http://www.uhlenbrock.de/intern/Produkte/Adapter/IE6E3E4B-001.htm!ArcEntryInfo=0007.0.IE6E3E4B); that should do it, shouldn't it? For the Lokmeeces, anyway.

[Nigelcliffe]

Just discovered the Uhlenbrock Lokmaus Adapter (http://www.uhlenbrock.de/intern/Produkte/Adapter/IE6E3E4B-001.htm!ArcEntryInfo=0007.0.IE6E3E4B); that should do it, shouldn't it? For the Lokmeeces, anyway.

 

Probably :-) Uhlenbrock implement LocoNet is a way which sometimes means incompatibilities happen. Usually stuff is OK, but not always.  Throttle devices are usually OK, most issues seem to be around the issue of what is "ground" (and thus track connections - beware with track connections, circuit boards can go "pfff" ).   Then, other makers (ESU/Piko) make other assumptions, and who knows ?

 

I'd recommend that you approach the UK importer (A&H in Northants) and ask them specifically if it works for your proposed combination. Or, whether they'll supply one with an option to return it if it doesn't work with your combination of hardware.

 

- Nigel

[Ron Ron Ron]

I was at a local (Berlin) model shop last week, where they had a demonstration from ESU of their new Mobile Control II system.

The MC2 was on sale, packaged with a WLAN access point, which you need to connect it to your ECoS system, at €299.99;

or without, for those who already have the access point unit, at €279.99. .......

 

Note that the MC2 can be found at a cheaper price.

e.g.

 

€285.95   (approx. £204 ) MC2 with WLAN adapter

€265.95   (approx. £190 ) MC2 handset only

 

 

 

I asked about the Piko version. ......This might be interesting, seeing as the Pico-branded handset costs €349.99 (the base station costs €399.99).

There are also single-train packs at €499.99, and a two-train pack at €599.99.

 

Similarly, the Piko SmartControl and train sets complete with the SmartControl and LokSound fitted locos, can be found cheaper tham m.r.p.

e.g.

 

€331.95   (approx. £237 ) Full SmartControl system.

 

€469.90   (approx. £335 ) Two different train sets available with track etc.

€559.90   (approx. £399 ) A larger set containing two trains - ICE3 + Freight train

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

An English version of the explanatory PDF now available - http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=1&vw_name=download&vw_id=13136 

 

I see Lippe are still the cheapest, for the basic, full set anyway, although Gaugemaster have slashed their price to around the same price but in pounds sterling (i.e. about 35% more expensive, which seems a lot to pay for an adaptor plug....... ).

 

All sites still state Q2 2015 for delivery!

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mike Storey

[Dogmatix]

The SmartControl broschure mentions the Loconet port thus:

 

"Loconet-T Extension Port
+ Wired controllers
+ Occupancy detector"

 

What it does not say is that the Loconet port is not (yet) activated. This is only noted in the user manual, as supplied with the kit, and in the FAQ on the website, only in German:

 

Question: Ich habe einen LocoNet-Anschluss an meiner PIKO SmartBox® entdeckt. Nach dem ich dort LocoNet kompatible Systeme angeschlossen habe passiert aber nichts.
Answer: Bitte haben Sie Verständnis dafür, dass die LocoNet-Funktion momentan noch nicht integriert ist. Da ein störungsfreier Betrieb momentan nicht gewährleistet werden kann, wird diese Funktion später mit einem Update nachgereicht bzw. „freigeschaltet“.

 

(Q: I have discovered a Loconet port on my PIKO SmartBox®. But when I connect a Loconet compatible system to it, nothing happens.

A:Please have understanding [can't think of a better phrase here] that the Loconet function is currently not integrated. As interference-free operation cannot be guaranteed, this function will be activated later by an update.)

 

Is it legal to list a function in publicity, but not to include it? If someone buys the kit assuming and needing the Loconet to work, would he be right to be rather dischuffed to find it not so? Can prospective buyers be expected to trawl through FAQs just in case an advertised function is not present?

[Nigelcliffe]

The SmartControl broschure mentions the Loconet port thus:

 

"Loconet-T Extension Port

+ Wired controllers

+ Occupancy detector"

 

What it does not say is that the Loconet port is not (yet) activated. This is only noted in the user manual, as supplied with the kit, and in the FAQ on the website, only in German:

 

 

Question: Ich habe einen LocoNet-Anschluss an meiner PIKO SmartBox® entdeckt. Nach dem ich dort LocoNet kompatible Systeme angeschlossen habe passiert aber nichts.

Answer: Bitte haben Sie Verständnis dafür, dass die LocoNet-Funktion momentan noch nicht integriert ist. Da ein störungsfreier Betrieb momentan nicht gewährleistet werden kann, wird diese Funktion später mit einem Update nachgereicht bzw. „freigeschaltet“.

 

 

(Q: I have discovered a Loconet port on my PIKO SmartBox®. But when I connect a Loconet compatible system to it, nothing happens.

A:Please have understanding [can't think of a better phrase here] that the Loconet function is currently not integrated. As interference-free operation cannot be guaranteed, this function will be activated later by an update.)

 

Is it legal to list a function in publicity, but not to include it? If someone buys the kit assuming and needing the Loconet to work, would he be right to be rather dischuffed to find it not so? Can prospective buyers be expected to trawl through FAQs just in case an advertised function is not present?

My understanding of consumer law (across whole of EU) is that the customer could return the product as "not fit for purpose" and obtain a full refund, including all postage costs.  If bought mail order, then the standard "return it" rules under distance selling regulations also come into play (and again across whole of EU).  My experience of German mail order retailers is that they are good when it comes to returns, particularly where the consumer has legislative rights. 

 

In my case, a working LocoNet would be an absolute requirement, so thanks for the posting, and I'll look out for when the feature has been activated. It shouldn't be hard to make it work as ESU have a stand-alone LocoNet adaptor for the ECoS which seemed to do a decent job when I was doing some comparisons of systems about a year ago.

 

 

- Nigel

[Dogmatix]

In order to charge the SmartControl, a standard USB charger is needed. A charger is supplied with the kit, the sort with an unpluggable cable with a standard USB plug at the mains unit end.

 

The manual tells how to update the SmartController: either directly via the internet (doesn't work, possibly because the app isn't in the Google play store), or by downloading an updater program onto a PC and connecting the SmartControl. What neither the manual nor the FAQs tell you is that the supplied USB cable is a charging cable only; it's no good for data transfer, so the computer does not notice the connection. Use a different, data-capable USB cable, and Bob's your uncle, computer sees the controller, update program updates the controller.

[Dogmatix]

 "not fit for purpose"

Depends how you define "purpose". If "purpose" is running trains, it's fit because it does. Loconet is merely an extra. So "not fit for purpose" might not hold water. I've had a similar case recently, can't remember what it was.

[GoingUnderground]

I would have thought that if the product specification says Loconet port and you bought it expecting the Loconet port to work, subject to the stated limitations of supporting Wired Controllers and Occupancy Detection only and you were relying on those functions being present, then you would seem to have grounds for a not fit  for purpose, always assuming that German consumer legislation, you're in Germany and I'm assuming that your dealer is also in Germany, recognises such a concept.. However, if you bought it expecting to use a Loconet booster then as that wasn't included in the list of supported functions then I don't think that a fit for purpose claim would stick.

 

The SmartBox must be quite a piece of kit, as it looks to be an ECoS without the screen, function buttons or throttle knobs, but with a built-in L.Net module. The firmware update follows the usual ESU pattern of being released as a zip file containing a linux file with the file extension ".bci". It looks to be over 3 times the size of an ECoS firmware file at about 40Mb, the latest ECoS firmware file is about 12Mb.

 

The way that I understand Android devices work, and I have only one of them, is that they are designed to accept apps from Google Play store to reduce the risk of trojans or other malware being present in downloaded apps. But the user has to find and select the app to be installed on an Android device from those available on the Google Play Store as judging from the instructions for the ESU MC2, I don't believe that it or the SmartControl will go off on their own searching for updated versions of their respective apps.

Edited November 22, 2015 by GoingUnderground

[Ron Ron Ron]

The way that I understand Android devices work, and I have only one of them, is that they are designed to accept apps from Google Play store to reduce the risk of trojans or other malware being present in downloaded apps. 

 

While the Google Play store is a relatively much safer place to download apps from, rather than riskier 3rd party download sites, it is still not fully curated and very few apps are tested by Google for security risks.

There have been reports of hundreds of dodgy apps available on there.

The golden rule is only download Android apps from the Play Store, if they come from reputable developers.

 

 

Quite unlike the "walled garden" Apple App Store, where apps have to be submitted for testing and only a handful of dodgy apps have managed to escape the net.

As it's a relatively rare event, it's a big news story when they do.

 

 

.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Mike Storey]

Are we still talking from the info blurb here, or has anybody managed to put their sticky fingers on to a real one yet? (site still says Q2 2015, so either my calendar is fast or....)

[Ron Ron Ron]

Are we still talking from the info blurb here, or has anybody managed to put their sticky fingers on to a real one yet?

They are out in the wild now Mike.

 

Here's a link to that FAQ page mentioned above.

Some people are reporting problems on there.....

 

FAQ's  (Click the link to Info/FAQ page).

 

.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Dogmatix]

[...]or has anybody managed to put their sticky fingers on to a real one yet?

Guilty, m'lud! Got one from a box-splitter on Ebay, for quite a bit less than the not-yet-realeased non-train-pack version.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

Here's a link to that FAQ page mentioned above.

Some people are reporting problems on there.....

 

FAQ's  (Click the link to Info/FAQ page).

 

.

 

The FAQ's were there before the kit was available in the stores; Piko seem to have anticipated these questions.

 

Anyway, here are a few to add:

 

Q. My computer doesn't 'see' my SmartControl when I connect it with the supplied USB cable to update it.

A. Use a different USB cable - one which is data-transfer compatible.

 

Q. The app as supplied (version 1.0.4) doesn't look or act quite the way described in the manual - even the icon is different.

A. Update it. Current version: 1.0.14.

 

Q. I can't see the version of the SmartBox where it should be according to the instructions.

A. Update the SmartControl app. Then you can.

 

Q. When I start the system, select an engine and try to move it, nowt 'appens. Except a green LED is blinking on the SmartBox.

A. The SmartControl boots up in 'Stop' mode, as indicated by the red LED. Touch the 'Stop' touch-button to clear and turn the LED green, and stop the SmartBox LED blinking.

 

Q. There are some locomotive pictures offered (all continental except - bizarrely - a blue BR Class 08 shunter) but none of them fit my locomotive. Can I add pictures?

A  Dunno - we'll check and come back to you on that one.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Dogmatix

[GoingUnderground]

If it was split from a set then fit for purpose is probably limited to being fit to work with the rest of the set contents. 

 

ESU are still tweaking the MC2.

 

The loco icons sound like they are the same as the ECoS default set, which includes an 08.

Edited November 23, 2015 by GoingUnderground

[PaulRhB]

The big advantage of a software based system is you can upgrade and sort issues. Roco said this early with Z21 and have slowly added all the features promised so if it suits your aspiration then I'd be patient as Piko seem to enjoy pushing into new areas and making it work. Also they will introduce some bugs with new versions so I tend to wait to see whether anything new gets upset, bit like the slightly bigger company's iOS

Edited November 23, 2015 by PaulRhB

[Mike Storey]

Guilty, m'lud! Got one from a box-splitter on Ebay, for quite a bit less than the not-yet-realeased non-train-pack version.

 

Thanks. Having gone through the FAQ's and seen the on-screen displays on the help menus etc, these are all in German. I presume, but can you confirm, that you can opt for English as the default language? (I mean on the control unit not on the FAQ's, which are already translated in the link!) Thanks

Edited November 23, 2015 by Mike Storey

[GoingUnderground]

The big advantage of a software based system is you can upgrade and sort issues. Roco said this early with Z21 and have slowly added all the features promised so if it suits your aspiration then I'd be patient as Piko seem to enjoy pushing into new areas and making it work. Also they will introduce some bugs with new versions so I tend to wait to see whether anything new gets upset, bit like the slightly bigger company's iOS

I don't know where you get the idea that it is Piko who are "pushing into new areas and making it work"  with the SmartControl.

 

It's ESU, who announced their Mobile Control 2 at the Nuremburg Toy Fair in 2014, (as vapourware as the handset they showed was clearly a mock up), which is the basis of the Piko SmartControl system. ESU are clearly, to my mind anyway, doing all the work, including providing both the hardware and software based on ESU's MC2 and ECoS.

 

The only relevance may be whether it was ESU who first approached Piko, and possibly other brands, with a proposal for them to share in a Dynamis/Navigator replacement, i.e. SmartControl, in exchange for a financial contribution to the development costs, or if Piko saw the dummy MC2 and went to ESU with the idea of turning it into the SmartControl system.

 

It's not just Roco who believe in firmware upgrades to improve their product. Long before the Z/z21 came on the scene, ESU have been upgrading ECoS's capabilities and functionality and bug fixing through a series of over 30 user installable firmware upgrades since it first went on sale 8 years ago. Users of the original ECoS can use the MC2 with their ECoS even though the MC2 wasn't even on the drawing board when the first ECoS went on sale.

 

Thanks. Having gone through the FAQ's and seen the on-screen displays on the help menus etc, these are all in German. I presume, but can you confirm, that you can opt for English as the default language? (I mean on the control unit not on the FAQ's, which are already translated in the link!) Thanks

If you want to know about SmartControl, most of it will be covered in the ESU Mobile Control 2 Manual. The only bits of SmartControl functionality missing are how to configure the SmartBox, but much of that will probably be somewhere in the ECoS manual. http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-systems/

 

As the SmartBox apparently uses much of the ECoS 2 firmware includign the standard icons, it should theoretically be possible to add your own loco icons, there are over 8,600 (and counting) colour icons available for installation to ECoS 2 owners. Whether ESU will make the ECoS icons available to SmartControl owners is another matter, especially as the vast majority of them were created by ECoS owners like me..

[PaulRhB]

No I was talking more about support for new areas they move into rather than new technology. As a Z21 user I'm hardly going to think there's much new about the system itself, it's just another twist, literally, on smartphone type screen systems

Their support for their G range from nothing and the basic range were good so I'd expect similar communication in support of this.

Edited November 23, 2015 by PaulRhB

[Dogmatix]

 I presume, but can you confirm, that you can opt for English as the default language?

Yes. You go into the Android settings and change the language to English, and the SmartControl app follows suit.

 

I didn't try any other languages, though....