North British Railway 6 Wheel Coaches.

[jamie92208]

If any of you have followed my Lancaster Green Ayre thread you may ahve seen the various etches that I've produced to build parts of the layout.  One of the team members is interested in the North British Railway and wants to build a branch terminus set in pre grouping days.  He needs some 6 wheel coaches but no kits are available.   We have therefore pooled our knowledge and produced a trial etch for a 6 wheel 5 compartment first in 7mm.

 

The plan is to build the trial etch then to do etches for the All 3rd and Brake 3rd that match the all 1st.

 

The etch is designed as an aid to scratch building rather than a kit.  

 

Producing the etch has faced several challenges.

 

Firstly the NBR had a peculiar type of raised panelling that some other companies used.  This means that the sides have to be half etched over large areas then have overlays soldered on.

 

The ends are mainly half etched which makes them fairly weak.

 

To solve this problem I've created a fold up inner body frame that the sides and ends will be soldered to.  This should make for a strong body.

 

The inderframe will be standard to all three types of coach and is designed to use the cleminson units sold byConeissuer models.  

 

All of this nicely fills an 18" by 12" etched sheet in 7mm.

 

 

Anyway after several weeks of drawing the trial etch arrived today.

 

 

The fold up frame is top left,   The sides and step boards are underneath  it and the the underframe bottom left.  On the right are the pannelling overlays and there are six formers for making the roof.  There are also W irons and door hinges.

 

 

Our plan is to do some test assembly over the Easter Holidays and then decide if the etch needs to be altered for future coaches.

 

 

Jamie

 

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by jamie92208

[emt_911]

Although this is outside my era, region and scale, I'll be following this with interest.

[ChrisN]

Jamie,

Looks interesting although way outside my skill set.  You may wish to put a link to this in the Pre-Grouping forum, I think there is a pinned thread to do it in.  (Yes there is just checked, a thread to put in links to workbench content.)

Edited March 20, 2015 by ChrisN

[obconical]

I have built a few NBR wagons, but there does seem a shortage of coach kits - I would be interested in the etch for this one. What wheels would be required?

[Blue Max]

If the kits were to be made available in 4mm I would be interested in purchasing a set of coaches.

 

SteveT

[jamie92208]

I have built a few NBR wagons, but there does seem a shortage of coach kits - I would be interested in the etch for this one. What wheels would be required?

I haven't got the drawings with me re the wheels this weekend but  think they are fairly standard.  I'll have a look when I get home.   Regarding the tetch please send me a PM.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

If the kits were to be made available in 4mm I would be interested in purchasing a set of coaches.

 

SteveT

Hi Steve,  

 

There's no reason why it couldn't be done in 4mm.  I'd have to play around with the sheet to make sure it fitted onto a standard sized etching sheet.  If you are interested please snd me  a PM.

 

Jamie

[ScottW]

I recently had the pleasure of making an NBR 6 Wheel 5 compartment first in 4mm. The etches were produced by Ian Terrell of NBR 4mm Developments, Ian is currently in the process of developing a range of NBR 6 wheel coaches. This particular coach was from one of his test etches.

 

 

I believe Ian has managed to find someone to produce the castings for his coaches so hopefully they will be on the market soon.

 

Scott

[ScottW]

There is something very attractive about that particular design of coaching stock: everything is in proportion. When painted red it will look superb. Must resist the temptation to change prototype...

Are the etchings being done in S for you?

Does anyone else shave at their workbench, or is that just Scott?

Ian has kindly produced a number of 4 and 6 wheel coaches for me in S, along with a couple of NBR goods brake vans. Sadly I haven't managed to find the time to make a start on them.

 

Scott

[PeterR]

Hi, Scott -

 

Thank you for the photo of the NBR all 1st, I know that there were to be some etched kits from Ian with the NBRSG, but did not know at what stage they were.

 

The coach looks very good and I look forward to the kits when they are available.

 

Meanwhile I will get the paint brushes out for some NBR and Highland wagons that I am building, in 4mm scale to keep me busy.

 

Yours Peter.

Edited March 22, 2015 by PeterR

[jamie92208]

Hi to   all who have posted on here. The NBRSG are being kept in touch by my colleague Mark who is a member.  We plan to do a test assembly of the etch duiring the easter holiday to check how it goes together.  This will be documneted on here.  

 

After that I will do the artwork for the brake third and the all third.  I only need to do the sides and the gaurds duckets as the rest is common to all three coaches.   Depending on how much interest there is we will get a batch of each produced.   If there are enough expressions of interest in the 4mm then I can get the etches for that done.

 

I would stress thoug that these are not kits as such.  They are being done as aids to scratchbuilding and will need many parts purchasing such as wheels, axle units and castings etc.  However we will try to put a list of lotential suppliers in the instructions.   

 

We don't have any intention, at this stage, of becoming commercialkit suppliers but are happy to shar the work that we've done with others as long as the costs are covered.

 

Jamie

[NBR906]

The posting by Scott and the replies has prompted me to show my personal interest in NBR 6-wheelers.

I have developed a range of NBR carriages in 4mm which are at various stages of readiness for release.

I was holding back making any formal announcements having learnt my lesson with the NBR goods Brake vans and the 4-4-0 chassis for the GEM Scott and Glen which have taken far longer than expected.

(I received the test run of the white-metal castings for the Goods Brake Vans at the end of February and should have the kits ready April 2015)

 

A summary of the carriages and their status is below:

 

9300 NBR(1908) Dia.19: NBR(1921) Dia.20: LNER SSA Dia.18B: 6-compt 3rd (1880-99)   7'6" width    - Photo-tool done and test built

9301 NBR(1908) Dia.18: NBR(1921) Dia.19: LNER SSA Dia.17B: 6-compt 3rd (1888-1901) 8'0" width  - Photo-tool done and test built

9302 NBR(1908) Dia.17: NBR(1921) Dia.18: LNER SSA Dia.16B: 5-compt 1st (1877-99)   7'6" width    - Photo-tool done and test built

9303 NBR(1908) Dia.16: NBR(1921) Dia.17: LNER SSA Dia.15B: 5-compt 1st (1882-99)    8'0" width   - Photo-tool done and test built

9304 NBR(1908) Dia.53: NBR(1921) Dia.51: LNER SSA Dia.42B: 4-compt Brake 3rd (1875-90)            - Photo-tool done and test built

9305 NBR(1908) Dia.54: NBR(1921) Dia.52: LNER SSA Dia.43B: Composite Lavatory (1882-99)          - Photo-tool done but not yet test built

9306 NBR(1908) Dia.25: NBR(1921) Dia.26: LNER SSA Dia.24B: Passenger Brake Van (1875-90)       - Artwork done but info on underframe reqd

9307 NBR(1908) Dia.14: NBR(1921) Dia.14: LNER SSA Dia. n/a: 4-comp luggage composite (1878)    - Artwork done but info on underframe reqd

9308 NBR(1908) Dia.49: NBR(1921) Dia.48: LNER SSA Dia.39B: 4-compt Brake Composite (1883)      - Photo-tool done and test built

9309 NBR(1908) Dia.55: NBR(1921) Dia.53: LNER SSA Dia.44B: Composite Lavatory (1887)               - Photo-tool done and test built

 

I have also developed artwork for 4-wheel carriages of 8'0 width:

9311 NBR(1908) Dia.20: NBR(1921) Dia.21: LNER SSA Dia.19B: 4-compt 1st (1882-93)  8'0" width      - Test model built and proven

9310 NBR(1908) Dia.22: NBR(1921) Dia.23: LNER SSA Dia.21B: 5-compt 3rd (1882-93)  8'0" width      - Test model built and proven

 

If I was just providing etches, then they could have been available in 2013 but I wish to provide them as complete kits less the usual wheel/couplings/paint etc.

Just as with my goods brake vans, it is the white-metal castings that takes time, being dependent on other people. Still to do are the gas lamps, emergency alarm and gas control box. Not too happy with the axleboxes as they require considerable adjustment by the modeller to fit.

Resin seats have been made by me for both classes.

It had been my hope that the Brassmasters Cleminson chassis would have been suitable but I discovered that it took up too much room on the underframe for any details to be added so one had to be drawn up that would suit the model.(Cleminson principle although not prototypical for NBR allows sufficient movement for pointwork and curves)

 

The prototype carriages used 4'0" Mansell wheels while 3'6" are the largest size available in 4mm.

Correspondence with Alan Gibson has proven that the S-scale centre can be used with a 16mm diameter tyre (on a 4mm axle) to give the required 4'0"

This means however that you have to allow for cut-outs in the floor for clearance, just as the prototype did!

 

As mentioned by Scott in his earlier post, I have resized some of the drawings to S-Scale and have been asked if I would consider doing so to 7mm. This remains a possibility (especially as I bought my first 7mm kits last year!) but it is not as straightforward as resizing the original drawing. Slots & tabs, holes and others have to be adjusted to suit the difference in metal thickness and details that worked in one scale may not in the other.

My 7mm developments all depends how patient you are, I am not so much a cottage industry as a spare room industry and have my full time employment and a new house to work on.......

Will try and post images later of the carriages built so far.

Brgds

Ian

 

 

[jasp]

Ian

Are the NB gas valve and alarm boxes anything like the CR ones? (pic attached)

If so see my posting on the CRA forum under Modelling Resources or get in touch

Jim P

[Shez]

Hi, as Jamie's co conspirator I thought it was high time I got on the forum.

 

As Jamie said in his post, the etches were made for me to build a rake of NBR six wheelers to go with the C15 I am currently building. I was originally going to do them in plasticard, but Jamie kindly offered to do the etched sides both to save time and compensate for my limited skills. Its in no way a commercial venture, just us saying, we have these, would anyone else like some while we are doing it?

 

Ian's 4 mill coaches look great, and I have checked out the website. Would there be any possibility of making these available in 7mm in the future? The NBR is well served for loco kits and wagons in 7mm. (Connoisseur, 62C, Dragon, Parkside) , but coaching stock  seems to be more of a problem. Problem is that their distinctive looks makes it difficult to pass off something else with a re paint!

 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank members of the NBR study group for providing information to put the etch together. 

 

As a new comer to the forum, I am in West Yorkshire. My interests is in  the pre grouping and early grouping period, especially the Northern and Scottish constituents of the LNER. (lots of family connections to the GC and Mexborough shed) i would like to get on with building a layout but family, work, and helping on Jamie's giant train-set keep getting in the way! I model in 7mm and despite limited skills enjoy having a go at kit and scratch building.

 

Mark

[PeterR]

Hi Mark & Ian,

 

Thank you for the photo of the 4mm scale NBR coach etch, it looks very nice.

 

I will be interested in some when they are ready, certainly: I knew they were 'around' and was waiting for some confirmation.

 

Could I suggest possibly a NBR 6 wheel saloon as well please? From the NBRSG site there is a saloon first (1908 dia 12) that seems to be downrated to a third class one?  And there is the saloon 3 to 1908 Dia 42 in the 3rd class list.

 

Finally will it be reasonable easy to bend the roof  to the 2 radii of it - sharper at the edges please?

 

Thank you for all the time that you have evidently put in on the drawings for the etches.

 

Yours Peter.

[jamie92208]

Update on the 7mm coaches.   Slaters do a 4' 12 spoke wheel.   I am looking at doing some overlays with the mansell centre detail on them that can be glued onto the wheels.  I just need to check whther or not 4' wheels will fit into the suspension units.

 

Jamie

[NBR906]

Jim - The castings from the former Decent Models range are useable though there are slight differences with the gas control box.

I would prefer to have a brass alarm box as the white metal version does not survive the soldering iron very well. I had been in touch with John regarding their availability and that had been the main reason for wishing to source my own production.

Similarly, the gas lamp castings that were available were of varying qualities, I suspect the original mould was getting tired.

 

Peter - The roof is half etched with the conduit for the gas lights and roof gutter detail left on. I am not entirely happy with the arrangement as the profile of the roof is tricky to reproduce. I first roll the roof to an approximate contour, with the ends formed tighter in a hold-&-fold. With the carriage upside down, solder along the centre line next to the ends and partitions then gently press on the model while rotating the carriage and soldering the joins. Care has to be taken as if too much heat and too much pressure is applied then the roof can crease along the partition though this can be reduced by gentle sanding.

If I were to produce the Holmes bogie carriages in 4mm or re-scale the 6-wheelers to 7mm then I would redesign the roof with formers and supports along the lines of Lochgorm Kits HR carriages.

 

From the list already revealed it is possible to modify some of the carriages.

9305 can be converted to NBR(1921) Dia.114: LNER SSA Dia.90B: Saloon Third converted 1909 and NBR(1921) Dia.130: LNER SSA Dia.106B: Saloon Third converted 1909

9309 can be converted to NBR(1921) Dia.158: LNER SSA Dia.125B: Saloon Third converted 1909

9307 can be converted to NBR(1921) Dia.133: LNER SSA Dia.135B: Brake Third converted 1917 and NBR(1921) Dia.135: LNER SSA Dia.110B: Passenger Brake Van converted 1917

 

I should add that when I took over the former Eastfield Models range, it was really due to not wanting the range of chassis kits and the Fish Truck to disappear from the market.

As no one else was showing any interest to take it on, I felt it was better to do something than stand back and regret the passing of yet another range.

My own developments are really just a side line to my own hobby and my interest in the NBR which include my involvement with the East of Scotland 4mm Group layout of Burntisland 1883 which many of you may be familiar with and the North British Railway Study Group.

 

If this was a commercial business then the receivers would have been called in some time ago! Any sales are used to subsidise further projects.

I am grateful to all those who have supported me, whether it be with information and ideas and especially those who have had the confidence to make purchases and have allowed the developments to continue.

 

Will update further next week.

[David4472]

John Boyle formal owner of the 7mm scale decent models range sold his 7mm scale items to Alba Railway Models last year.

 

The white metal casting recently released by the Caledonian Railway Association came from Alba Railway Models, the castings made from high quality white metal and so long as too much heat isn't used they will solder to brass quite easily using 100 degree solder.

 

I'll confess I don't read postings on this forum except when sent a link so I am unclear of the protocol expected from suppliers, if I'm breaking protocol my apologies.

 

If any one is looking for parts in 7mm scale from the previous John Boyle/Decent models range can I suggest contacting Alba Railway Models.

 

David

[jamie92208]

Mark and I are going to start the test build of the etch on Friday afternoon and I will post some pictures.   I took the etch to the clubrooms on Friday and several pairs of eyes perused them.  This examination dicovered that I'd missed the window frame bolections on two frames per side and that I'd forgotten to put the droplights on the sheet.  Both these have been sorted for future etches.  

 

We have discussed wheels and are going to use 3'7 ones for the test build and will then check the necessary clearances to see if 4' ones will fit.

 

 

Jamie

[NBR906]

A few images of my 4mm builds of the NBR carriages that I have drawn up.

Image name show the reference numbers referred to in my post 13.

 

The B&W image was sourced from Wikipedia under "tumbleholme" though it should really be described as "turn-under" in railway carriage descriptions.

 

The castings are 7mm white-metal from John Boyle of Decent Models and were intended for his 4-wheel NBR carriages.

I am not sure if these were passed onto Alba Models with his former 7mm CR range.

 

Last image shows my 4mm castings on the under frame, in this case with the addition of the later fitted vacuum cylinders.

The centre wheel-set has been included to show the Westinghouse though its position is different on the brake vehicles.

 

 

[jamie92208]

Mark and I made a start on the test build this afternoon. I took a double spaced copy of the draft instructions along so that I could make notes.

 

After an initial pot of tea we took the sides off the etch along with the lower panels and after forming the tumblehome the first job was to fold the door hinges and then solder them into the slots in the sides. A few of the hinge hadn't got their fold lines on them, so that's an amendment to add.

 

We did one side apiece and then went through the slots easily.

Another note was that we need to put at lest two spare sets of hinge on the etch as they are very easy to lose. the effect is worth it though.

The lower side panels were then soldered onto the sides.

After more tea Mark fitted the steps to the ends and I bent up the inner frame to which the sides and ends will be attached.

Just to test it out we laid a side and an end on the frame. It all seems to fit.

 

More work to be done Tuesday evening but several alterations to the etch (All minor) have been noted and we both think it will be better to fit the lower side panels before the hinges. The most serious omission is that there were only 8 lower door panels rather than 10 so that will be attended to.

 

I've also started on the artwork for the all third and then will do the brake third. I've also been promised a drawing for a saloon that fits on this underframe.

 

The test build should be on show at the GOG show at Cleckheaton.

 

Good progress today and the inner frame folded up well and should make the body very sturdy.

 

Jamie

Edited April 3, 2015 by jamie92208

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

Those look good, Thank you for the photos which give a very good impression of the coaches and another 'Thank you' for the comment right at the end for the saloon that you mention, as I have a liking for saloons!.

 

These I think - so maybe quite wrong are 7mm scale are the 4mm scale versions going to be the same?

 

Another topic has anyone seen the website for 'D3Diagram models'?  here is a link      http://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=common/home, and they have a section for the NBR.

 

Does anybody have any models from them at all, and/or opinions?

 

Yours Peter. 

[jamie92208]

Hi,

 

Those look good, Thank you for the photos which give a very good impression of the coaches and another 'Thank you' for the comment right at the end for the saloon that you mention, as I have a liking for saloons!.

 

These I think - so maybe quite wrong are 7mm scale are the 4mm scale versions going to be the same?

 

Another topic has anyone seen the website for 'D3Diagram models'?  here is a link      http://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=common/home, and they have a section for the NBR.

 

Does anybody have any models from them at all, and/or opinions?

 

Yours Peter. 

Hi Peter,  Thanks for the comments.  Yes this is 7mm and the initial batch of other etches will be 7mm.  I have worked out the reduction and had a go at doing the artowork for a 4mm version.   It comes out necely on a 12 by 9 sheet and the plan is to produce 2 sheets in 4mm one with the 3rd and brake 3rd on it but capable of being separated down the centre and then another with the first and the saloon on it, again could be split if this makes sense.  these again will be scratch building aids not kits and I'm not familir with the 4mm parts market.   The 4mm etches should work out at about £20 per coach.  Mark and I are hoping to do some more work on the test build on Tuesday evening and the coach body and possibly underframe  will be on show at the Gauge O Guild spring show at Cleckheaton.  Hopefully the production etches should be ready by early September.

 

Jamie

[ChrisN]

Jamie,

Can I say I think this is brilliant!  I have been following this thread with interest even though I have no interest in the NBR, and the chances of an NBR coach turning up on the Cambrian is fairly small so I am afraid  I will not be purchasing any.   The fact that you started to make these for yourself and then have made them available in not only your scale but another is, and I am struggling to find the right word, highly commendable,(?), excellent, (?), brilliant, (?) and really helpful.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Mea Culpa...........

 

........at least as far as one aspect of Ian's product development delays............some gas lamp masters.

 

So having had this thread prick my conscience today; issue rectified.  Masters ready to send to Shapeways - Ian, you have an email via more normal routes.

 

15no at 4mm, 5 no at S gauge and 4no in 7mm.

 

Both Jamie and Ian's kits look rather fine; well done gents.