91111 to become part of national collection

[Rail Announcement]

The designation of 91111, For the Fallen, has been ratified by the Science Museum's Board of Trustees.

The designation includes not only the locomotive, but its commemorative livery as well.

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h20cf2420#h20cf2420

[MarkC]

Interesting. Does this mean that the originally designated Class 91 (the speed record holder; to my shame I can't immediately recall the number ) is now off the list?

[russ p]

I think 91010 is the record holder, I would consider this to be far more important as it holds the record for the fastest locomotive in the UK. As striking as the other one is its only a set of vynals which could be applied to a time to the record holder

[woodenhead]

So it's livery is now protected, the locomotive is still in daily use how on earth can VTEC be expected to keep a unique set of vinyls pristine and undamaged till the locomotive retires in how ever many years it has left.

[Catkins]

We are talking about a commercially produced vinyl artwork, that will have been designed on a computer, and thence the image will be saved as a data file, and as the livery begins to suffer the ravages of time, it can be removed, the bodywork repaired where required, and a new vinyl wrap applied.

 

Isn't 91110 in the Battle of Britain Livery?

[Astockfan101]

hopefuly both 91110 and 91111 will be saved

[kenw]

Strange, I was under the impression that 91110 had already been designated, as it's the UK loco record holder, and yes it is also this one that's in Battle of Britain Memorial livery. I'm fairly sure it's not the original vinyls though and they've been renewed.

The Flying Scotsman DVT has certainly had the vinyls renewed, as when the right hand van door's open it's now the "Ying Scotsman" rather than the "Lying Scotsman" (The "FY" are now both on the door, rather than just the "F" as originally the case).

 

This isn't the first unique livery for 91111, as it was the only IC225 vehicle to carry the full National Express livery. Also, it's curent livery still incorporates it's mouse, a carry-on from it's original InterCity name of Terrance Cuneo

[Rail Announcement]

The Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board, chaired by Lord Faulkner, made the

recommendation after he attended the dedication ceremony at London King's Cross.

 

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rail Announcement

[Gwiwer]

91111 is considered significant because its stock number relates to the date 11th November.  I'm with those above who feel the speed record holder is a more worthy candidate for our National Collection than a locomotive which, by dint of its coincidental number, happened to have a vinyl applied which has attracted favourable attention in some quarters.  

 

Personally I'm no fan of the vinyl artworks now applied to many rail vehicles with the sole exception of the black class 153s which promoted Cornwall.  

 

By all means print a new set of vinyls if that is what is wanted.  The existing version won't look their best for too long no matter how much care is taken of 91111.  The fad for presenting locomotives as their long-gone classmates could even be extended to another class 91 which might, at some future time in the National Collection, be renumbered 91111 and wear the same scheme.

 

Moot point but what would have happened had the class not been renumbered upon overhaul and we still had 91011?

[Ed-farms]

From what I have read online the AC Loco Group are interested in one of the class as well and there is a seperate group who want to preserve a 91and these two groups will take on 91101 (pioneer) and 91110, not sure who would get to choose first, but it seems we could have 3 91's preserved.

[Coldgunner]

The 91's are still perfectly capable of mixed traffic work. I was always under the impression the #10 was marked for preservation due to its speed record. I sincerely hope 10 is kept too. The 91's are an interesting bunch...

 

91001 = Class doyenne

91010 = Record holder, BBMF livery

91011 = The Fallen

91014 = Durham Cathedral (dual pantographs)

 

The first one to go I suspect would be 91023/91132 due to its history.

[lmsforever]

Is there an HST to be preserved these are more important than a 91 I think.

[cheesysmith]

I think one should be preserved, and the other 30 rebuilt with different internally, motors etc. I'm sure you could put the internals from a traxx loco into the bodyshell, and get a few coaches, and there would be a ready market for short term rentals. If you did like BR did and pair one with a HST power car, you could even show the DaFT how the IEP how to do it.

[MarkC]

The record holder is actually 91131 (formerly 91031), I understand.

[GraemeMc]

If memory seves me right 91131 holds the passenger carrying record (154.1mph), whilst 91110 holds the outright record (162mph) and carries a plaque to celebrate this. The plaques are similar in style to Mallards and were on the recent Model Rail/Hornby LE of 91110.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lereddog/8712550394/

[Unknown Warrior]

I think there is a danger that we might be missing the point here: 91111 "For the Fallen," has a special place as a commemoration of WW1. I am pleased that it has been ear marked for preservation in the National Collection for that reason. This does not stop other 91's being preserved, but it does set 91111 aside as special.

 

Far too many memorial locomotives have been scraped, it is just a shame that neither the Claughton "Patriot." or the Patriot "5500 Patriot" were set aside for preservation. Fortunately the support being received for the construction of the new National Memorial Engine: (4)5551 "The Unknown Warrior, " will ensure that that omission will be rectified, hopefully in time for it to be in London, in steam, on 11th November 2018. Currently we are on target to achieve this as long as the money keeps coming in.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Unknown Warrior

[Reading General]

162 sounds very pedestrian nowaydays

[G-BOAF]

Hang on. Rather shocked to read this. I was under the belief that 91031 was/is designated, by dint of being the last BR express passenger locomotive, and holding the passenger carrying record...

I would have thought that in the british railway history rankings, it would still be the most significant member of the class... ? :-(

 

And while on the subject of plaques, 91031 wore LNER style record plates during its intercity years.

 

I guess one cost of privatisation/repainting is that histories get forgotten about. It is ridiculous to preserve a loco simply because of a number/livery rather than its place in history.

 

Clearly not all designated items go to the NRM (e.g. the Mk1 TPO went to SRPS) so is there a chance that two class 91s will be officially listed?

Edited March 26, 2015 by G-BOAF

[Coldgunner]

Is there a possibility that more than one could be 'officially' preserved? One in running condition, one for display like the Metropolitan units?

[nightstar.train]

After a quick google, offical designation for 91031/91131

 

Class 91 Locomotive no. 91031: Sir Henry Royce (last high-speed locomotive built for

BR, and holder of speed record for train conveying passengers in Britain: 154.1 mph)

 

That's the only 91 designated before 91111. So those two are saved for the nation, then which ever others other groups take on.

 

Off topic slightly. Also on the list I see both Class 139 Parry People movers are listed for preservation, as are two complete HST sets.

 

Really off topic: how the hell do you do emoticons on this forum on an iPad?

[nightstar.train]

Is there a possibility that more than one could be 'officially' preserved? One in running condition, one for display like the Metropolitan units?

Considering that the designation for 91111 specifically includes the vinyl wrap I expect its last eve wheel turns will be into a nice warm building at York or Shildon and then it won't run again, or even move outside very often, so as to preserve the wrap.

 

As to keeping on running, it would depend on the life of key components and wether it would be technically or financially viable to refurbish or replace them as needed.

[G-BOAF]

If the bulk of the fleet are scrapped (though I'd hazard a guess that a number will find a second life in East Anglia, MML etc or possibly regeared for freight) technically there would be 20 odd-locomotives worth of parts plus spares. For one working loco used on occasions, that would be a long working retirement. Clearly life isn't so simple, and storing all those spares would be very expensive.

Either way, I'd hope that one or two groups would keep a 91 in running condition, ideally with a complete set of Mk4s.

I'd donate...!

 

I would hope we'd end up with:

91101 ACLG,

91131 NRM,

91111???

 

Maybe one to Crewe where they were built.

Would a museum in Scotland be interested?

Doncaster?

Shildon?

Super shunter at Bounds Green?

 

Personally one on a plinth or in a glass pavillion in the square outside KGX, or in the new King's Cross goods yard development would look fantastic. But I doubt such vision and honouring of our recent past exists in the eyes of the planners there...

Edited March 27, 2015 by G-BOAF

[Dan Griffin]

 

Off topic slightly. Also on the list I see both Class 139 Parry People movers are listed for preservation......

 

 

And the future of the Scarborough spa expresses has been confirmed! Don't forget you read it here first! Ha ha ha

[Rail Announcement]

The NRM has said this morning: "We can confirm that the Class 91 91111 For the Fallen has been designated by The Board of Trustees of the Science Museum, however designation does not infer that disposal will automatically be to the National Railway Museum or that we are the only recipient that will be considered or consulted. For example in the past year, 25 items have been designated and 12 disposed of.  Only four of these have come to the National Railway Museum."

[Rhydgaled]

Sorry for digging this topic up again; I know it's old but a fair few class 91s have now been withdrawn by LNER so (assuming science eventually finds a way to tackle COVID-19 so we can all go to out for leisure purposes again) the topic of preservation is important.

 

On 27/03/2015 at 10:02, Rail Announcement said:

The NRM has said this morning: "We can confirm that the Class 91 91111 For the Fallen has been designated by The Board of Trustees of the Science Museum, however designation does not infer that disposal will automatically be to the National Railway Museum or that we are the only recipient that will be considered or consulted. For example in the past year, 25 items have been designated and 12 disposed of.  Only four of these have come to the National Railway Museum."

 

I believe the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board / the Science Museum trustees have now cancelled the designation of 91111 and instead designated 91110 (along with 91131 which was already designated). I would have liked to see all three designated but clearly we cannot keep everything. If one of the three has to be scrapped, saving 91010 (UK loco speed record holder) and 91031 would I feel be the right decision.

 

As noted in the quote above, designation does not mean that the NRM automatically gets the item - if I understand correctly a safe home will be sought for items on the list if their owner has no further use for them. I would hope that this is happening now for 91031 which I understand is one of those LNER have already withdrawn, and it means something along the lines of G-BOAF's post below is possible:

 

On 27/03/2015 at 00:09, G-BOAF said:

If the bulk of the fleet are scrapped (though I'd hazard a guess that a number will find a second life in East Anglia, MML etc or possibly regeared for freight) technically there would be 20 odd-locomotives worth of parts plus spares. For one working loco used on occasions, that would be a long working retirement. Clearly life isn't so simple, and storing all those spares would be very expensive.

Either way, I'd hope that one or two groups would keep a 91 in running condition, ideally with a complete set of Mk4s.

I'd donate...!

 

I would hope we'd end up with:

91101 ACLG,

91131 NRM,

91111???

 

If it were up to me, I would put 91110 (retaining Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight livery) in the NRM as part of a line up with Mallard and 43102 (in Swallow livery) as a speed records exhibit (with 43159 preserved elsewhere). Unfortunately I don't think 43102 and 43159 are on the designation list.

 

Going back to 91s, with 91110 in the NRM that leaves 91031 for restoration to Swallow livery (tidy up the grills so the livery works while they are at it) for use on charters, probably with the AC loco group. I'd also hope that somebody will set up a '225 group' to preserve 1-2 mark 4 DVTs and 11-12 mark 4s (one full rake plus a spare buffet and SO and maybe a spare SOE). Put new high-spec first class interiors in the buffets, the spare SOE (if you have one) and the first class coaches and you have several formation options for different charter markets:

• Loco + SOE + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + RFB + PO + PO + DVT for special event extra capacity (assuming TOCs are permitted to use non-PRM livery on a limited number of days each year)
• Loco + SOE + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + RFB + PO + FOE + Loco for special events where you need to top & tail diesel locos because that aren't DVT compatible
• Loco + FOE + PO + RFB + PO + PO + RFB + SO + SO + SO + DVT for Pullman dining trips (a bit like Northern Belle)

(FOE = First Open End, SOE = Standard Open End, SO = Standard Open, PO = Pullman Open, RFB = Restaurant First Buffet, DVT = Driving Van Trailer). As well as preserved 91 number 91031, the mark 4s could be available for use with the class 89, preserved class 90s etc.

 

If there was such a group, I would almost certainly sign up as a member.