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91111 to become part of national collection


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Sorry to hear that 91131 has been withdrawn. I would have thought that being the youngest member of the fleet it would have been in service until the end. Or at least until its preservation was secured

I hope in the current crisis its designation isn't forgotton and that it ends up scrapped.

Or that it is stored at an insecure location and vandalised and then de-designated....

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13 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Sorry to hear that 91131 has been withdrawn. I would have thought that being the youngest member of the fleet it would have been in service until the end.

 

90050 was withdrawn years ago due to a fire. Just (bad) luck of the draw that it was the youngest 90 I guess?

The order which locos are refurbished & withdrawn are probably more down to when faults occur & when major exams are due rather than total age.

It would be nice to have a few preserved though....somehow.

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Though I think 91111’s vinyls are awesome, I personally think 91110 is the better choice as it holds the UK record for a electric loco closely followed by 91131 as the UK record holder for hauling a train with passengers.  Also it was the last express loco (both diesel and electric) .

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9 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

Sorry for digging this topic up again; I know it's old but a fair few class 91s have now been withdrawn by LNER so (assuming science eventually finds a way to tackle COVID-19 so we can all go to out for leisure purposes again) the topic of preservation is important.

 

 

I believe the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board / the Science Museum trustees have now cancelled the designation of 91111 and instead designated 91110 (along with 91131 which was already designated). I would have liked to see all three designated but clearly we cannot keep everything. If one of the three has to be scrapped, saving 91010 (UK loco speed record holder) and 91031 would I feel be the right decision.

 

As noted in the quote above, designation does not mean that the NRM automatically gets the item - if I understand correctly a safe home will be sought for items on the list if their owner has no further use for them. I would hope that this is happening now for 91031 which I understand is one of those LNER have already withdrawn, and it means something along the lines of G-BOAF's post below is possible:

 

 

If it were up to me, I would put 91110 (retaining Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight livery) in the NRM as part of a line up with Mallard and 43102 (in Swallow livery) as a speed records exhibit (with 43159 preserved elsewhere). Unfortunately I don't think 43102 and 43159 are on the designation list.

 

Going back to 91s, with 91110 in the NRM that leaves 91031 for restoration to Swallow livery (tidy up the grills so the livery works while they are at it) for use on charters, probably with the AC loco group. I'd also hope that somebody will set up a '225 group' to preserve 1-2 mark 4 DVTs and 11-12 mark 4s (one full rake plus a spare buffet and SO and maybe a spare SOE). Put new high-spec first class interiors in the buffets, the spare SOE (if you have one) and the first class coaches and you have several formation options for different charter markets:

  • Loco + SOE + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + RFB + PO + PO + DVT for special event extra capacity (assuming TOCs are permitted to use non-PRM livery on a limited number of days each year)
  • Loco + SOE + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + SO + RFB + PO + FOE + Loco for special events where you need to top & tail diesel locos because that aren't DVT compatible
  • Loco + FOE + PO + RFB + PO + PO + RFB + SO + SO + SO + DVT for Pullman dining trips (a bit like Northern Belle)

(FOE = First Open End, SOE = Standard Open End, SO = Standard Open, PO = Pullman Open, RFB = Restaurant First Buffet, DVT = Driving Van Trailer). As well as preserved 91 number 91031, the mark 4s could be available for use with the class 89, preserved class 90s etc.

 

If there was such a group, I would almost certainly sign up as a member.

I doubt there will be sufficient need for a charter rake (or more than 1) of 91s & MK4s. Route availability is much more limited than MK3s and TOCs won’t retain driver knowledge once withdrawn from LNER.

 

as for ACLG, they have sold off everything they had except the 81-85 & 89 so very much doubt they would want to run a 91 on the Mainline.

 

The plan to regear 91s for export to Europe is apparently still live and just paused due to Covid-19. If 91131 Is at Doncaster Railnet terminal in store then it’s likely part of that fleet so may be be going abroad before it sees any UK museum.

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On 14/05/2020 at 14:49, G-BOAF said:

Sorry to hear that 91131 has been withdrawn. I would have thought that being the youngest member of the fleet it would have been in service until the end. Or at least until its preservation was secured

I hope in the current crisis its designation isn't forgotton and that it ends up scrapped.

Or that it is stored at an insecure location and vandalised and then de-designated....

 

According to Rail UK forum 91131 is currently stored at Doncaster Royal Mail Terminal. I agree with your comments regarding the designation being forgotton or it being vandalised.

 

On 14/05/2020 at 21:04, black and decker boy said:

I doubt there will be sufficient need for a charter rake (or more than 1) of 91s & MK4s. Route availability is much more limited than MK3s and TOCs won’t retain driver knowledge once withdrawn from LNER.

 

as for ACLG, they have sold off everything they had except the 81-85 & 89 so very much doubt they would want to run a 91 on the Mainline.

 

The plan to regear 91s for export to Europe is apparently still live and just paused due to Covid-19. If 91131 Is at Doncaster Railnet terminal in store then it’s likely part of that fleet so may be be going abroad before it sees any UK museum.

 

I wasn't suggesting more than one charter rake of mark 4s. Just the one rake (with a few spare vehicles which would also allow different formations for different sorts of charter) for a total of up to 12 vehicles (plus DVT(s)) preserved for charter use. Does designation prevent a loco being exported and regeared for freight use?

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2 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

 Does designation prevent a loco being exported and regeared for freight use?

Not if it remains in the ownership of the same body (ie the ROSCO) as it hasn't been disposed of. It might cause it to be de-designated though. Designaton is a way of the preservation/museum sector claiming first dibs, its not like listing a building. 'Caroline' , for example, is designated because it was used in Charles and Di's honeymoon train but it's much modified from what it was in 1981. 

Edited by Wheatley
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Anyone got any email addresses for curators of the NRM (as the 'host' of the Railway Heritage Committee - or whatever its called). IF so, can they send an email? I'm not suggesting posting emails here obviously.

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I thought that at the point of sale from the owner at the time of designation the item had to be offered for preservation?

Who has to pay to re-import a designated loco? Is the owner liable given they are aware they are purchasing or transfering a designated item? i.e. if the loco is sold to EuroPhoenix are they liable to reimport when it reaches the end of its life?

 

If not, even more so action is taken to secure '31 now!!!

I guess Crewe Heritage should also be made aware since this loco was the last to be built at Crewe.

 

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On 17/05/2020 at 19:04, G-BOAF said:

Anyone got any email addresses for curators of the NRM (as the 'host' of the Railway Heritage Committee - or whatever its called). IF so, can they send an email? I'm not suggesting posting emails here obviously.

 

On 19/05/2020 at 13:14, G-BOAF said:

I thought that at the point of sale from the owner at the time of designation the item had to be offered for preservation?

Who has to pay to re-import a designated loco? Is the owner liable given they are aware they are purchasing or transfering a designated item? i.e. if the loco is sold to EuroPhoenix are they liable to reimport when it reaches the end of its life?

 

If not, even more so action is taken to secure '31 now!!!

I guess Crewe Heritage should also be made aware since this loco was the last to be built at Crewe.

 

 

Have you tried asking them (address at the link @Wheatley posted)? If not, let me know if you'd like me to write to them. Perhaps I should also create a new topic over in the preservation sub-forum given that we aren't talking about 91111 anymore (which seems to have been de-designated).

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On 19/05/2020 at 13:14, G-BOAF said:

I thought etc etc...

 

 

I can't do multiple replies within links:

 

I thought that at the point of sale from the owner at the time of designation the item had to be offered for preservation?

Yes, more or less. The owner has to advise the RHDAB who can direct that it be offered for preservation and on what terms. That's my reading of the Railway Heritage Act anyway, ymmv.

 

Who has to pay to re-import a designated loco? Is the owner liable given they are aware they are purchasing or transfering a designated item? i.e. if the loco is sold to EuroPhoenix are they liable to reimport when it reaches the end of its life?

If the ROSCO has sold it to Europheonix then it has been 'disposed of' so it should have gone through the RHDAB process and they are presumably satisfied that Europhoenix will honour its designated status. If they have only leased it then it has not been disposed of yet so it remains the ROSCO's asset and their responsibility. 

 

Railway Heritage Act 1996, -  http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/42/contents . There are some amendments as the RHDAB took over the responsibilities of the Railway Heritage Committee after Dave's 'bonfire of the quangos'. There is a link to the RHC's Final Report on the first link I gave you, which makes interesting reading. 

 

Be aware that members of the RHDAB are (as far as I can establish) either volunteers or full time railway/museum staff doing it as part of or in addition to their day job. They have a secretary but that role is unlikely to be full time so there may be limited scope for detailed discussion with individual enthusiasts. Nothing to stop you trying though.

 

 

Edited by Wheatley
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3 hours ago, 5944 said:

91111 should be working 17.05 KGX - LDS and 20.45 return today, its last day with LNER before going into warm storage. 


Taken today at Peterborough on the 1A34, heading towards London Kings Cross on it’s penultimate return trip.

2EA97DD3-53C0-447F-BD33-59FD3FD7C25C.jpeg

499D1708-900F-4B34-A8B1-CB317A5DC340.jpeg

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Has there been a change of plan over this one then?

According to info posted on the 'Class 91 withdrawls' thread on 22 July, 91111 was said to be on the list of 10 locos LNER confirmed as being retained

Edited by Ken.W
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12 hours ago, Ken.W said:

Has there been a change of plan over this one then?

According to info posted on the 'Class 91 withdrawls' thread on 22 July, 91111 was said to be on the list of 10 locos LNER confirmed as being retained

I believe it’s going into warm storage, so it might live on to fight another day 

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