DCC Starter Pack Train Sets

[Metr0Land]

(Originally posted within another thread but moved to one of its own)

 

From my postings on other threads you're probably all painfully aware that I'm happy with DC and Electrofrogs but still don't really 'get' DCC wiring with Electrofrogs.  I'm totally befuddled by the fact some contributors are saying you must have a frog-juicer, others saying it's not needed, and others saying it's highly desireable. So......

 

 

 

Can I ask a dumb question?  What track do you get in the packs of starter DCC sets from the various manufacturers?

 

Are they all plain ovals, or do some include turnouts?  If they include turnouts do they really include frog juicers?  I can't believe they would have this complication in junior sets but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Does anyone here admit to having prolonged usage of a starter set eg when helping the lad(ette) with their layout?  Have any problems developed over time due to 'not doing it properly with frog-juicers'?

[Oldddudders]

Frog Juicer is a proprietary product, and I know of no other that claims the same effects. Train-set manufacturers do not enter this arcane world.

 

If you wire your points in a sensible fashion for DC, they will be fine for DCC, too. Insulfrog points work OK, but may be more prone to stalling a loco in DC or DCC, courtesy of that large plastic frog. Live-frog points offer more metal-to-metal contact, but do need to be managed. Frog Juicers do that in an unintelligent, prat-proof fashion. Isolating the frog and using a cheap switch, or using contacts off a point motor to achieve the same result, will also see you through.

 

DCC is NOT a black art. How do you think some of us thickos have been using it for so many years?

[The Bigbee Line]

I bought one of these sets from Macs Models when on a visit to Mossend Euroterminal, years ago. Soon had it running on the floor of the hotel room. That converted me to DCC. It now comes with a Multimaus, a sophisticated unit.

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC51259&style=&strType=&Mcode=Roco+51259.

 

It's worth keeping an eye open for offers and on ebay.

[peterfgf]

Not a bad choice.  I bought one these sets a few years ago over the internet from Hobby-Sommer in Salzburg to get me started in DCC.  The price then was about Euro.170 and is now Euro.209 (about GBP.155). No problems with importing.  The track supplied is rather good (code 87 on a plastic bed) which I use for table-top testing.  The Multi-Mause controller is pretty good and is quite sophisticated as mentioned above, but I had to refer to the instructions quite a few times to get the hang of it.  It has a rotary speed control which is good.  I've seen one of the UK DCC sound chip suppliers using one at the shows he being attending.  Roco have some even more sophisticated stuff which I'm tempted to upgrade to.  Definitely worth trying.  There are few offers out there where the sets have been split and sold separately.

[Phil S]

Some of both Fleischmann and Roco Digital Starter Sets include pointwork - either RocoGEOline in Roco boxes, or Fleischmann Profi Track in Fleischmann Boxes.

There is now a mix of which controllers might be provided ... depending on the Set and Size:   Either the Roco or Fleischmann MULTIMAUS controller OR the Z21 Central Unit which needs the user to own a smartphone, Tablet or Computer to complete operation.

 

RocoGEOline pointwork - can be user selected as either Dead Frog or Switched LIVE Frog - with integral switching.  Point Motors (and Digital Point Decoder) fit WITHIN the point, as, like GEOline track, it comes ready-ballasted Code 83.  Point radii equivalent to Hornby standard.

 

Fleischmann Profi Track Points come without isolating the routes 'as supplied, but by simply removing the wire links (ie the reverse process of Hornby Users adding links 'for dcc')  become 'thinking' points powering the selected route.  Profi track is ready ballasted Code 100 Point motors fit on the baseboard, alongside - clipped to the point, but can be inverted for 'flush' operation by cutting a trench for the motor. However,this makes emergency manual operation more difficult.  Point radii is one of the largest for 'set track' at about 700mm

 

TRIX Digital Starter Sets include TRIX C Track - which is a slightly different shade from Roco ... brown rather than grey... and is a 2-rail version of Marklin C Stud Contact '3 rail' track.

Physically the track is easy to connect with Roco GEOline.  Point motors fit within the trackbed - no holes in the baseboard.

 

CAUTION: 'Continental Track Radii' by NUMBERS is effectively 1 smaller than that of the UK Standard created by Triang Hornby System 6.  Ie Roco Radius 3 is approx Hornby R2

TRIX points are TIGHT ... being their radius 2, UK radius 1

 

All these are available in the UK from various suppliers, and anyone who uses Gaugemaster as their wholesaler. and possibly others.

 

[edcayton]

Frog Juicer is a proprietary product, and I know of no other that claims the same effects. Train-set manufacturers do not enter this arcane world.

 

If you wire your points in a sensible fashion for DC, they will be fine for DCC, too. Insulfrog points work OK, but may be more prone to stalling a loco in DC or DCC, courtesy of that large plastic frog. Live-frog points offer more metal-to-metal contact, but do need to be managed. Frog Juicers do that in an unintelligent, prat-proof fashion. Isolating the frog and using a cheap switch, or using contacts off a point motor to achieve the same result, will also see you through.

 

DCC is NOT a black art. How do you think some of us thickos have been using it for so many years?

 

You may be many things Ian, but you ain't a "thicko".

 

Ed

[Kenton]

There has been a great deal exposed on here about "frog juicers" probably 90% of it utter rubbish. DCC has been around much longer than Frog Juicers. They are NOT needed - but they are a good/clever way of solving a particular problem.

 

I do wish folk on here would get over the DCC wiring question: (I'm thinking about having it tattooed on my forehead) - There is no such thing as "wiring for DCC" the wiring of points is the same (OK, I am assuming elctrofrog points and not those insulfrog things created for "play" sets) ALWAYS WIRE FOR DCC/DC and then (if you must/wish) add section breaks/isolators/switches to enable DC.

 

One of the reasons why So called DCCing points is confusing is that the Peco points out of the box are lacking a point motor and are inadequate in their electrics. Modification of the Peco point is simple and provides a more robust solution to wiring for BOTH DC and DCC. If you have ever tried to do that retrospectively, once the points are down, you will understand why it should be done as soon as the point comes out of the box. The Peco point motors are inadequate because they do not provide for frog polarity switching (they do provide a switch but even they are of dubious reliability and awkward to set-up)

 

So out of the box, most folk wish to automate their points. That is add a motor and some mechanism to change the polarity of the frog.

 

IMO forget the Frog Juicer. I have DC and DCC layouts have never felt the need to purchase a Frog Juicer (nothing to do with them not working) just that I have managed perfectly well for years without them. So they are superfluous.

 

Starter sets are just what they say. Not really a model railway product. They are to generate "interest" and simple so maybe a mall circle with a single point to a siding. The point will be hand operated buy a finger on the tie bar (the Peco points (as I said, do work this way) will require no additional wiring just correct use of isolation track joiners. As the "layout" becomes more complex further feed and isolators will be required.

[giz]

The Bachmann Highlander set contains a turnout (other retailers are available):

 

http://www.ehattons.com/71903/Bachmann_Branchline_30_048_Highland_Tourer_Digital_Sound_Set_with_Class_37_4_37418_in_BR_blue_and_Mk2_TSO_/StockDetail.aspx

 

It is dead frog and not self isolating so that the siding remains live at all times allowing the sound loco to tick over whilst parked there.

 

The only wiring required is from the dcc controller to the single power clip provided and there are no isolating joiners either.

[Mike Friedman]

Kenton, you should definitely go ahead with the tattoo; then post a 'photo so Andy can pin it to the DCC forum , the 'photo that is, although either would save the same purpose, however pinning the 3D version might be a bit gory.

[deadlyduck]

Ive said this a few times now but it is still as relevent.I learnt all about DCC frome 2 sources 1st was the website www.brian-lambert.co.uk the 2nd was you tube.If you ask a number of modellers they will have their own ways,non of which on here are wrong but i used the 2 ive mentioned just to simplify thing for myself.Once you get a grasp of the basics it will become easier.Then if you do come across a problem there are a lot on here who can help you.My advice would be to follow 1 way then you will find it easier instead of taking 1 part from 1 source then another from another

[Huw Griffiths]

 

Kenton, you should definitely go ahead with the tattoo; then post a 'photo so Andy can pin it to the DCC forum , the 'photo that is, although either would save the same purpose, however pinning the 3D version might be a bit gory.

 

 

Either that or have an "as is" photo - and have "ALWAYS WIRE FOR DCC / DC" added in PhotoShop - there's no shortage of people on this site who'd be capable of doing the PhotoShop work.

[Oldddudders]

You may be many things Ian, but you ain't a "thicko".

 

Ed

I've put a fiver in the post, Ed, TVM!

 

Actually, I am merely trying to assure others that I am a wholly non-techie type, who abandoned all sciences in the 4th year at skool - yet I have been successful over 18 years in setting up more than one DCC layout, with multiple power zones and DCC-operated points etc. I have also had no major difficulty in converting many locos to DCC and sound, with the programming of CVs an everyday event. I genuinely believe that my lack of aptitude for tech matters indicates that anyone who reads enough about DCC and its requirements has a very good chance of success - and any holes in their knowledge will be quickly filled by asking on RMweb.

[Crosland]

Does anyone here admit to having prolonged usage of a starter set eg when helping the lad(ette) with their layout?  Have any problems developed over time due to 'not doing it properly with frog-juicers'?

 

Using a frog juicer is, in fact, the sticking plaster for not doing it properly

[Ron Ron Ron]

Using a frog juicer is, in fact, the sticking plaster for not doing it properly

 

I don't really go along with that Andrew. I'm entirely with Kenton on this.

 

They are NOT needed - but they are a good/clever way of solving a particular problem.

There will be situations where a Frog Juicer is a very useful solution.

 

Are there not lots of electronic devices "out there" in the real world which use current sensing and polarity switching, in all sorts of applications?

 

Back here in toy train town, what about DCC auto-reversers?

Nobody is beating a drum and saying they are bad and shouldn't be used.

Surely the Frog Juicer is just a particular type of auto-reverser?

In fact, the Dual Frog Juicer doubles as an auto-reverser.

 

 

.

[Nigelcliffe]

Current sensing is different to relying on short circuits. Short circuits are a fault, and relying on them is bad engineering design. Both Frog Juicers and most auto-reverser a rely on short circuits.

 

In nearly every case I've seen there are alternatives to devices working by short circuits. In many cases the alternatives are cheaper as well as better engineering. But, I don't expect to convince those seduced by such electronic devices.

 

Current sensing would be one way to operate reversers and frog switching. The common use of current sensors is for track occupancy.

 

 

Nigel

[The Bigbee Line]

This is my low tech DCC from my original starter set. It's quick and easy to set up.

 

Bad news; only 8 addresses 1 = 8, only 2 functions. The only thing is can do is control

the trains and set an address.

 

However it can be 'spliced' into a later Roco or Lenz set, where they can be used as a

hand held controller. IMHO worth looking into on ebay etc.

 

 

 

Regarding a frog juicer, they allow a small layout to operate on DCC with no switching

at all, just the juicer. For me that is great, just the points to change and drive the

trains. It's worth mentioning that there are versions to operate 1, 2 or 6 frogs. the 1

and 2 frog versions I believe can do slightly more that the 6 version. Worth checking

out the on line instruction sheets.

[Kenton]

 

The only thing is can do is control the trains and set an address.

 

What more can anyone possibly want?