ICI Hoppers from Hatton's in Partnership with Oxford Rail

[cctransuk]

On 16/07/2020 at 21:08, pharrc20 said:

Hi John, there was an etched fret of the large letters for John Talbot's Appleby Engineering resin and whitemetal kit he did for the ICI hoppers in the late 1990s but I would imagine these are no longer available now.  Maybe someone with a 3d printer might be able to print some copy letters using the rtr model ones as a template and making a suitable set up for both letter sizes?

 

Cheers Paul

 

Did John produce the etched ICI? I am acquainted with him, so I could check if he has any left.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited August 9, 2020 by cctransuk

[pharrc20]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

.... which are available from Ratio and Cambrian.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Ony draw back is the Ratio ones are 5ft 6ins wheelbase whereas the ICI Roberts ones are 6ft, not a big difference I know but slightly different shape but you might get away with it on the diamond frame versions. Not sure about the Cambrian ones guess they may be same bogie wheelbase? To backdate the plate frame version you can just add a axlebox cover to hide the roller bearing caps.

 

HTH Paul

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, pharrc20 said:

Ony draw back is the Ratio ones are 5ft 6ins wheelbase whereas the ICI Roberts ones are 6ft, not a big difference I know but slightly different shape but you might get away with it on the diamond frame versions. Not sure about the Cambrian ones guess they may be same bogie wheelbase? To backdate the plate frame version you can just add a axlebox cover to hide the roller bearing caps.

 

HTH Paul

 

I'll check the WB of the Cambrian bogies.

 

If I'm going for 1961 ICI, am I to understand that no wagons would have been fitted with plate-framed bogies?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[pharrc20]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Paul,

 

I have ordered the first book - I guessed that it would be more relevant.

 

I think that my wagons will be backdated to ICI 1961 condition - I will need to source the ICI the ICI raised letters; (etching, laser-cut?); but, until the book arrives, I'm not sure whether i'll need to fit new diamond-frame bogies. I hope not - like the plate-framed ones).

 

John Isherwood.

Hi John, no problem the first book is more relevant for the history and finer details. The one saving grace for the Hatton's rtr model is that barring the letters and bogies the hopper body and chassis is the same for both pre and post-WW2 versions - you just have to match small letter with diamond frame bogies and larger letters with the plate frame bogies both running on plain front oil-axleboxes. To model the 1951 ICI and the John Summers wagons requires further alterations to the body on both versions. So you could easily model 6 post-WW2 wagons maybe - even new on delivery from Horbury works perhaps?

 

Cheers Paul

[pharrc20]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Paul,

 

The question is no sooner posed than answered - thank you.

 

So - diamond-framed bogies it is; are Ratio or Cambrian ones more suitable?

 

Regards,

John.

John, I used to use the Ratio ones when I used them on the old cast resin kits back in the 1980s - they still look good now again even though a 5ft6 wheelbase but visually probably get away with it I think.

 

Cheers Paul

[pharrc20]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Did John produce the etched ICI? I am acquainted with him, so I could checkif he has any left.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I think so unless he outsourced that part of the process - I know he did the resin and whitemetal castings. He may just have some etches still you never know - best check with John if you can.

 

Regards Paul

[Enterprisingwestern]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I will need to source the ICI raised letters; (etching, laser-cut?);

 

Lots of transfers stacked on top of each other?!!

 

Mike.

[pharrc20]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I'll check the WB of the Cambrian bogies.

 

If I'm going for 1961 ICI, am I to understand that no wagons would have been fitted with plate-framed bogies?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

In 1961 you would have seen both designs of bogies operating together in rakes of wagons usually 16 at that time behind an 8F of course.

 

Cheers Paul

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, pharrc20 said:

In 1961 you would have seen both designs of bogies operating together in rakes of wagons usually 16 at that time behind an 8F of course.

 

Cheers Paul

 

That was very timely!  I was on the point of ordering six sets of Cambrian diamond-frame bogies; and they would have required the WB extending to 6'-0'' - something that I've dome before.

 

Thanks,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

That was very timely!  I was on the point of ordering six sets of Cambrian diamond-frame bogies; and they would have required the WB extending to 6'-0'' - something that I've dome before.

 

Thanks,

John Isherwood.

 

So - just to be absolutely clear - the post-war ICI wagons were fitted with plate-frame bogies from new, but with oil axleboxes?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[pharrc20]

On 16/07/2020 at 21:33, cctransuk said:

 

So - just to be absolutely clear - the post-war ICI wagons were fitted with plate-frame bogies from new, but with oil axleboxes?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Sorry John, only just seen this didn't realise you had replied.

 

Yes the post-war wagons ICI Alkali (later Mond Division) numbers 3284 to 3319 all had plate frame bogies 6ft wb from new and fitted oil axleboxes. In fact all of the ICI and Summers wagons had oil axleboxes from new.

Regards Paul

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

Sorry John, only just seen this didn't realise you had replied.

 

Yes the post-war wagons ICI Alkali (later Mond Division) numbers 3284 to 3319 all had plate frame bogies 6ft wb from new and fitted oil axleboxes. In fact all of the ICI and Summers wagons had oil axleboxes from new.

Regards Paul

 

Paul,

 

I am now in possession of six hoppers and a copy of your book. Having had an hour or so to kill whilst waiting for a couple of new tyres to be fitted to my car, I am much clearer as to the history of the various batches of these wagons.

 

I have also found a source of etched ICI lettering, so the backdating can commence.

 

Thanks again,

John.

 

PS. I am sorely tempted to buy another ten wagons, to make up a decent rake.

[pharrc20]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Paul,

 

I am now in possession of six hoppers and a copy of your book. Having had an hour or so to kill whilst waiting for a couple of new tyres to be fitted to my car, I am much clearer as to the history of the various batches of these wagons.

 

I have also found a source of etched ICI lettering, so the backdating can commence.

 

Thanks again,

John.

 

PS. I am sorely tempted to buy another ten wagons, to make up a decent rake.

Hi John, glad to be of assistance. Of course I am sure that the fact that 8Fs hauled rakes of sixteen wagons will have no bearing on whether you need to ahem expand your fleet of hopper wagons from six upwards . And I really have no idea whether Hatton's or indeed Oxford Rail have any plans to re-run the model in new versions... it has been very quiet on this front sadly . And I have asked them both but very non-committal.

Cheers Paul

[cctransuk]

On 16/07/2020 at 21:08, pharrc20 said:

Hi John, there was an etched fret of the large letters for John Talbot's Appleby Engineering resin and whitemetal kit he did for the ICI hoppers in the late 1990s but I would imagine these are no longer available now.

 

I have been in contact with John Talbot, and he has around 100 of the ICI hopper etches - which he has very kindly offered to me. When they arrive, I will post again here with a photo of the etch.

 

On request and with John's consent, I will distribute them FOC; all I'll ask for is an SAE. PLEASE DO NOT SEND REQUESTS FOR ETCHES YET - I WILL POST AGAIN WHEN WE GET TO THAT STAGE.

 

For anyone who models the pre-TOPS era, these etches will enable them to backdate the TOPS era hoppers that Hattons still have in stock. The best model to purchase is the weathered ones, as these are so heavily weathered that the TOPS markings are invisible. With the ICI raised lettering and a numberplate on the solebar added, the models will be indistinguishable from heavily weather pre-TOPS wagons from the 3284 - 3319 number series.

 

I have a rake of ten in the process of backdating, and they look superb; I intend respraying one in ex-works light grey as a recently overhauled wagon.

 

Now - a couple of requests; does anyone know of a clear photo of the painted solebar numberplates that these wagons arried in the BR steam era? Also - did the NON POOL marking have a red or a body colour background on these wagons?

 

John Isherwood.

Edited July 21, 2020 by cctransuk

[Barry O]

Does it mean we could get some transfers for these wagons John? Renumbering them is a pain..

 

Baz

[cctransuk]

On 21/07/2020 at 15:45, Barry O said:

Does it mean we could get some transfers for these wagons John? Renumbering them is a pain..

 

Baz

 

For my own use, I have just designed a set of ten numbers - but for application to solebar painted number plates, which I have just cut and fixed from 10 thou. / 0.25mm. plastic card; 12 x 3.3 mm. The letter form - specifically the '3' - is different on the body number livery.

 

I have printed my numbers in 10%, 25%, 40%, 55%, 70%, 85% and 100% density white, to represent varying degrees of fading when weathering is applied.

 

If anyone wants to backdate their hoppers to the same 1960s condition as mine, I could convert my own set of numbers to cover all of the 2284 - 2319 series. Note that the hoppers now remaining from Hattons have plate framed bogies and LLL - RRR side rib angles; only 2284 - 2319 were in this condition in the 1960s, as I understand it.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited August 9, 2020 by cctransuk

[cctransuk]

On 21/07/2020 at 16:20, cctransuk said:

 

 

DELETED

Edited August 9, 2020 by cctransuk

[cctransuk]

On 21/07/2020 at 14:22, cctransuk said:

 

I have been in contact with John Talbot, and he has around 100 of the ICI hopper etches - which he has very kindly offered to me. When they arrive, I will post again here with a photo of the etch.

 

On request and with John's consent, I will distribute them FOC; all I'll ask for is an SAE. PLEASE DO NOT SEND REQUESTS FOR ETCHES YET - I WILL POST AGAIN WHEN WE GET TO THAT STAGE.

 

For anyone who models the pre-TOPS era, these etches will enable them to backdate the TOPS era hoppers that Hattons still have in stock. The best model to purchase is the weathered ones, as these are so heavily weathered that the TOPS markings are invisible. With the ICI raised lettering and a numberplate on the solebar added, the models will be indistinguishable from heavily weather pre-TOPS wagons from the 3284 - 3319 number series.

 

I have a rake of ten in the process of backdating, and they look superb; I intend respraying one in ex-works light grey as a recently overhauled wagon.

 

Now - a couple of requests; does anyone know of a clear photo of the painted solebar numberplates that these wagons arried in the BR steam era? Also - did the NON POOL marking have a red or a body colour background on these wagons?

 

John Isherwood.

 

I now have the Appleby Model Engineering etches - in excess of 200 of them! They can be ordered from my website - see https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

 

 

I have also produced transfers for the solebar number and owners plates - see Sheet BL183 at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

 

 

Together, the etched I C I lettering and the transfers make an easy job of backdating Hattons remaining stock of (at the time unpopular) heavily weathered TOPS era wagons to the 1960s era - I know, I've just about finished ten of them!

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

 

 

[cctransuk]

Does anyone know of a source of these oil axlebox cover plates in 4mm. scale?

 

 

I'd like to backdate the roller bearing axleboxes on my Hattons hoppers - I'll need 80 covers!

 

John Isherwood.

Edited August 9, 2020 by cctransuk

[ColinK]

One of my photos, a rake behind a Peak at Peak Forest in 1984. Note the brake van.

 

[joseph benjamin]

When I built the John Taylor Uncommon Kits I used the Roxey plate bogies I did try their diamond bogies but didn't work out how to assemble them. I built some as the earlier wagons with small ICI letters for which I used a Scalelink etch. 

[pharrc20]

Hello, in the first lockdown I have been working on my hopper fleet to add and change details. And so, here are my five Hatton's I.C.I. hopper wagons that I modified. Why am I doing this you might ask? Well I want to model ICIM 19120-151 versions as they are different to the model as supplied, which models the first and second batches of hoppers.

 

So you need to alter the bodyside ribs and strapping to represent 19120-151 and replace the end support plate that is much more substantial on the third batch only.

 

So first job is to ensure you have the correct side of the wagon face up - you need the side with the little door release handles showing (vac pipe other side is face down). The second and fifth ribs need carefully taking off. They came off pretty easily although glued on into two locating holes so you may snap the tiny locating pegs but not a lot you can do about that. Set these aside and so you know which one is 2 and 5 as important for later.

 

The messy part is to take off the original molded strapping flange that is next to where the 2nd and 5th ribs have just been removed from. The molded flange is carefully pared away and cut flush to the bodyside and once the thin sliver of plastic has been taken off the area will need a bit more tidying up with a selection of files and sanding sticks keeping any paint or weathering damage to a minimum. You need to remove the flange as far down the bodyside as possible to where it meets the frame ideally.

 

The new flange for rivet strips 2 and 5 are now on the opposite side of the strip. So before started cutting the rib and flange were positioned as follows; right, right, right (centre arch), left, left, left. On first and second batch this is same on both sides. To correctly model third batch this needs to rearranging to right, left, right (c arch), left, right, left.

 

The new flange is made using Evergreen strip plastic pack 101, which is just .010 × .030" in size (0.25 × 0.75mm) so teeny weeny lol. Any thicker than .010" or wider than .030" would be too much. The new flanges are glued into place as two pieces one 14mm for top flat part of bodyside and a longer 22mm piece for where bodyside slopes inwards to form hopper door chute. The ribs are swapped over so original 2 becomes 5 and vice versa. The reason for this is because the ribs themselves have a flanged edge too. The ribs are glued back on next to the new white strips. With some careful weathering and painting a reasonable match to the original semi-matt finish can be made. I just need to lightly varnish mine now to suit.

 

I also intend to convert four models to become and make a smaller body to properly represent ICIM 19152-164 that were originally the similar John Summer iron-ore hoppers. To boldly go... making a start on stripping down a Hatton's I.C.I. hopper to try and separate the body from the chassis... it seems well glued together. Is it worth me trying in a bath of IPA to loosen glue joins up?? I've tried hot water but didn't seem to have any affect.

 

Comments and suggestions please.

 

Cheers Paul

[pharrc20]

Continuing on from the last post I forgot to explain about the end supports that need removing and new ones making. The third batch also had more substantial support where the end and side body slopes met the inner chassis and a beefed up design was fitted from new and repeated on the Summers wagons too.

 

The existing molded support part easily pops out from the model with some gentle prising with a thin or knife blade working slowly and carefully with stray fingers out of the way.

 

The new supports also have the added complication of taking the vac pipe on the other side of the wagon through it as well.

 

After some playing around with thin plastic Evergreen strip I have decided that thin brass strip would be a lot more durable and so I will hopefully be able to bend and fold up the new supports easily. I will cut the vac pipe and add a small hole for the viewable side to pass through... I think that is the plan!

 

First photo is a macro closeup of the model and the red scribble shows roughly where the new support plate goes. Second photo shows the original support plates one from each end.

 

Third photo is a quick grab from one of my photos in first hopper book and shows the beefy support as fitted to one of the ex Summers wagons to try explain the new part I need to make.

 

Cheers Paul 

Edited November 1, 2020 by pharrc20
Incomplete

[zr2498]

On 09/08/2020 at 12:37, cctransuk said:

Does anyone know of a source of these oil axlebox cover plates in 4mm. scale?

 

 

I'd like to backdate the roller bearing axleboxes on my Hattons hoppers - I'll need 80 covers!

 

John Isherwood.

Hi John

Just catching up with this thread. I see you have been busy with backdating the hoppers. I started this last year with just 3 hoppers but alas did not get too far. I was also looking for the axle box cover plates but had no luck. As I was back dating unweathered TOPS versions the plan was to remove all of the TOPS marking and fit name plates as per the earler versions and add new numbering. This would be my first attempt at making my own transfers. A last resort as I usually get transfers from your goodself!

If only there were spare plate bogies (of the ealier design) available, then back dating of the TOPS wagons would be so much easier, especially as these seem more readily available.

Dave

[cctransuk]

50 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

Hi John

Just catching up with this thread. I see you have been busy with backdating the hoppers. I started this last year with just 3 hoppers but alas did not get too far. I was also looking for the axle box cover plates but had no luck. As I was back dating unweathered TOPS versions the plan was to remove all of the TOPS marking and fit name plates as per the earler versions and add new numbering. This would be my first attempt at making my own transfers. A last resort as I usually get transfers from your goodself!

If only there were spare plate bogies (of the ealier design) available, then back dating of the TOPS wagons would be so much easier, especially as these seem more readily available.

Dave

Dave,

 

I take it that you are aware of my transfer sheet BL183 - see https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

 

I can also supply the etched I C I letters formerly produced by Appleby Model Engineering.

 

Regards,

John.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Appleby