ICI Hoppers from Hatton's in Partnership with Oxford Rail

[zr2498]

Going for the record? Not me though.

[pharrc20]

3 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Going for the record? Not me though.

Not quite the record but this one is...

[pharrc20]

4 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Going for the record? Not me though.

And this one finished on £82 no further bids too this evening.

[Suzy Sulzer]

14 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

Not quite the record but this one is...

As i tell my better half 'there an investment', .

Edited October 24, 2021 by Suzy Sulzer
typo

[ColinK]

I think I’ve got a single one somewhere, I was planning to get a whole rake but never got round to it.

[atom3624]

Are you supposed to put a wagon on a wooden plinth, or in a transparent case as you do some prized locomotive possessions?

Lovely model, and selling for what people are prepared to pay, but, erm, wow!!

My actual thoughts are censored, but obvious!!

 

Al.

Edited October 24, 2021 by atom3624

[zr2498]

1 hour ago, ColinK said:

I think I’ve got a single one somewhere, I was planning to get a whole rake but never got round to it.

A case for more to be produced surely? The tooling should still be there.

[Yorks1]

Does anyone know when the change from oil bearing to roller bearings was completed. The first photos I can find of the wagons upgraded with roller bearing are from March 1966, and this is of an ex-works wagon (with other none ex-works wagons also roller bearing fitted latter in the same year). The last photos showing oil bearing's seem to be from c1973-4. 1973-4 also seems to be the year when the running number on the underframe was removed and the Overhead line warning flashes added. Would anybody have information to contradict or improve on these dates? 

[Hibelroad]

21 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

Not quite the record but this one is...

Wow! I used to see these running through Marple and later spent time spotting them in Northwich. So when Hattons produced them I bought six for the famous “layout which I am planning but haven’t built yet”. Looks  like I’m in the money!

[zr2498]

1 hour ago, Yorks1 said:

Does anyone know when the change from oil bearing to roller bearings was completed. The first photos I can find of the wagons upgraded with roller bearing are from March 1966, and this is of an ex-works wagon (with other none ex-works wagons also roller bearing fitted latter in the same year). The last photos showing oil bearing's seem to be from c1973-4. 1973-4 also seems to be the year when the running number on the underframe was removed and the Overhead line warning flashes added. Would anybody have information to contradict or improve on these dates? 

Looking at info in 'An illustrated history of the ICI hopper wagon', there is a comment that oil pad axle boxes were replaced with roller bearings in the late 1970's. A joint venture between ICI and Timken. I would be very interested in your photo of roller bearings fitted to a wagon 1966!

Dave

[PenrithBeacon]

They might be oil filled rather than grease. 

[adb968008]

£210 for a wagon ?

eeks.

 

I can kind of imagine this tooling being a bit interesting to produce more in the short term, but still that’s a bit OTT.

[Yorks1]

Posted 5 hours ago

  7 hours ago, Yorks1 said:

Does anyone know when the change from oil bearing to roller bearings was completed. The first photos I can find of the wagons upgraded with roller bearing are from March 1966, and this is of an ex-works wagon (with other none ex-works wagons also roller bearing fitted latter in the same year). The last photos showing oil bearing's seem to be from c1973-4. 1973-4 also seems to be the year when the running number on the underframe was removed and the Overhead line warning flashes added. Would anybody have information to contradict or improve on these dates? 

Looking at info in 'An illustrated history of the ICI hopper wagon', there is a comment that oil pad axle boxes were replaced with roller bearings in the late 1970's. A joint venture between ICI and Timken. I would be very interested in your photo of roller bearings fitted to a wagon 1966!

Dave

 

Thanks for the reply. The photo in question is on page 21 of that book, with another on page 26 showing a non refurbed wagon. Having looked through both of Mr. Harrisons books and online these are the closest dates I can come up with. I was intending to repaint one of my wagons to represent a Oil bearing - Plate frame with Overhead line flashes and early white Tops, but now suspect this set-up never existed (hope somebody has a photo to prove me wrong). There also seems to be a eight year gap between the number (and plate) being removed from the underframe and any form of TOPS number on the wagon side (earliest TOPS I can find is 1982). Maybe just not visible in the photos as most tend to concentrate on the Loco.  

[zr2498]

8 hours ago, Yorks1 said:

Posted 5 hours ago

  7 hours ago, Yorks1 said:

Does anyone know when the change from oil bearing to roller bearings was completed. The first photos I can find of the wagons upgraded with roller bearing are from March 1966, and this is of an ex-works wagon (with other none ex-works wagons also roller bearing fitted latter in the same year). The last photos showing oil bearing's seem to be from c1973-4. 1973-4 also seems to be the year when the running number on the underframe was removed and the Overhead line warning flashes added. Would anybody have information to contradict or improve on these dates? 

Looking at info in 'An illustrated history of the ICI hopper wagon', there is a comment that oil pad axle boxes were replaced with roller bearings in the late 1970's. A joint venture between ICI and Timken. I would be very interested in your photo of roller bearings fitted to a wagon 1966!

Dave

 

Thanks for the reply. The photo in question is on page 21 of that book, with another on page 26 showing a non refurbed wagon. Having looked through both of Mr. Harrisons books and online these are the closest dates I can come up with. I was intending to repaint one of my wagons to represent a Oil bearing - Plate frame with Overhead line flashes and early white Tops, but now suspect this set-up never existed (hope somebody has a photo to prove me wrong). There also seems to be a eight year gap between the number (and plate) being removed from the underframe and any form of TOPS number on the wagon side (earliest TOPS I can find is 1982). Maybe just not visible in the photos as most tend to concentrate on the Loco.  

Well spotted. Perhaps the statement should have been, 'all of the' oil pad bearings were replaced with roller bearings by the late 1970's. This makes life easier for me as I wanted to back date three pristine TOPS versions to pre TOPS, so only have to modify the decals and add a plate to the solebar. The roller bearings can be included. Of course it would be easier to swap the three I have with someone who has three pristine pre TOPS with plate bogies if they want to do the reverse!

[Yorks1]

As it happens, I may have three Oil Bearing Bogie sets which I could swop for three sets of roller bearing bogies (I live in Stokesley). One pair are painted black (see attached photo, (still need to change the load rating to 44)), the other two are factory weathered ones. Still suspect that all Oil Bearings had gone by 1973/4 rather than late 70's, Elec warning flashes are also post 74, unless anybody has an earlier photo?

[zr2498]

Yorks1 - thanks for the offer. I already have 3 sets of oil bearing plate bogies for which I painstakingly removed the factory weathering ready to repaint and lightly weather. The desired swop was for complete pristine models which would require zero effort apart from a renumber.

I might leave a couple with the roller bearings now that you have highlighted their inclusion in my modelling period, (some variety). I will remove the TOPS transfers and try make some new transfers based on the original artwork.

I take your point. Most photos concentrate on the locos. That why finding good photos for wagon weathering has always been an issue.

[66738]

On 24/10/2021 at 09:55, Suzy Sulzer said:

As i tell my better half 'there an investment', .

Ha ha. That’s what I tell the Missus.  “They are not toys, but carefully selected collectors items, that not only retain their value but increase, some significantly. If things ever went belly up and we needed money, I could raise thousands pretty quickly”. 
£210 for a wagon? Crazy crazy price.

66738

[atom3624]

Taken from an early post in 2015 ....

 

"Just had a look on the Hattons site and there are 20 versions available to pre order covering mid grey, dark grey pre TOPS and dark grey TOPS with the later having options for non ICI branded types. There are also several weathered versions planned. For a potentially complex model and a retailer commission, the advertised price is somewhat startling at £24 for the pristine versions and £25 for the weathered ones"

 

Al.

[Garethp8873]

Finally got back over to Bewdley on the 14th this month. Was able to get some shots of ICI Hopper 3252 prior to my last photos in November 2020 following it's repaint but before the iconic ICI letters were returned to their place.

 

 

 

[pharrc20]

On 24/10/2021 at 15:39, Yorks1 said:

Does anyone know when the change from oil bearing to roller bearings was completed. The first photos I can find of the wagons upgraded with roller bearing are from March 1966, and this is of an ex-works wagon (with other none ex-works wagons also roller bearing fitted latter in the same year). The last photos showing oil bearing's seem to be from c1973-4. 1973-4 also seems to be the year when the running number on the underframe was removed and the Overhead line warning flashes added. Would anybody have information to contradict or improve on these dates? 

Yes it was 1966 as since had this confirmed after both books published (typical I know!). I have a copy of a letter from I.C.I. dated March 1983 in which it refers to these modifications and others in general and I quote..

"Lamp brackets were fitted in 1966 when B.R. eliminated the need for brake vans. Roller bearings were fitted in 1966."

 

I would guess that the removal of the enamel numberplates from the solebars coincided with the introduction of the TOPS private owner numbering and thus the black data panels instead along with the yellow plastic number disks too.

 

Cheers Paul

[Yorks1]

Thanks for conformation about the roller bearing, assume there must have been a separate program of maintenance just for changing the axles rather than it being limited to the seven year repaints / rebuilds. Looking through the books, there seems to be a eight year gap between the last photo of the enamel number plates and the first of the TOPS numbering on the hopper side, white stencil without a background. I know it's difficult to pick out wagon detail from loco orientated photos but not seeing some trace of either type of number for eight years seams a bit odd, unless you have photos of TOPS coded wagons prior to 1982. Had you noticed that at least two wagons had the Black panel and TOPS code painted at the wrong end of the wagon ?  

[pharrc20]

18 hours ago, Yorks1 said:

Thanks for conformation about the roller bearing, assume there must have been a separate program of maintenance just for changing the axles rather than it being limited to the seven year repaints / rebuilds. Looking through the books, there seems to be a eight year gap between the last photo of the enamel number plates and the first of the TOPS numbering on the hopper side, white stencil without a background. I know it's difficult to pick out wagon detail from loco orientated photos but not seeing some trace of either type of number for eight years seams a bit odd, unless you have photos of TOPS coded wagons prior to 1982. Had you noticed that at least two wagons had the Black panel and TOPS code painted at the wrong end of the wagon ?  

Yes the exact nature of the maintenance for the bearings and wheel sets is unknown but I would imagine they would have to adhere to B.R. standards and specs to be able to run on the mainline of course.

 

Yes, you don't often get photos of just the wagons unless they were parked up at either end of the journey. I do kick myself now for not making the journey to visit Oakleigh Sidings back in the day to see the wagons up close and stationary oh well.

 

I do have some photos of the wagons taken in the 1970s so I will check those to see what numbers and plates are fitted. I couldn't use them for the latest book in the end.

 

Yes I have seen those two in train formations and must try figure out which two they are, so will need to go back through my photos and notes to try fond them and see if they were amongst the internal user and stored ones I saw at Winnington and Lostock in 1998.

 

Cheers Paul

[Yorks1]

There is a photo on Flickr showing BLI 19092 dumped at Crewe c1994, this may be one of them.

Further wagon on eBay, currently at an eye watering £80. 

 

Regards Colin

 

[pharrc20]

19 hours ago, Yorks1 said:

There is a photo on Flickr showing BLI 19092 dumped at Crewe c1994, this may be one of them.

Further wagon on eBay, currently at an eye watering £80. 

 

Regards Colin

 

Yes that is the photo I was thinking of, just trying to remember where I saw it. The eBay wagon now sat at £84 and just over a day to go until auction ends.

 

Regarding the number plates I haven't got any exact dates but I would imagine that upon introduction of TOPS the wagons would have had to had the yellow number disk painted on or affixed if a plastic disk onto the solebar as a minimum. I don't know what the rules were around applying these to private owner wagons back  then but I would imagine that BR would have wanted them doing sooner than later.

 

A friend managed to buy one of the original enamel numberplates purely by chance having spotted it for sale some years ago.

 

Cheers Paul

[hmrspaul]

I've no idea where and how the TOPS yellow plastic number plates were produced but I do think it was very quick. I picked up an SMBP plate at Collectors corner - there were hundreds of them - because they were never used with the fleet being split 60% Esso Shell SUKO 40% BPO in 1976 soon after TOPS was introduced and all the wagons had the new SUKO or BP plates. I'm sure the plate I have never went near a wagon and serendipitously it is a wagon I photographed. 

 

Incidentally these plates are relatively complex. The number is deep in the back of the plastic, somehow painted/coloured separately to the backing and then all is covered with more plastic. 

 

Paul

Edited February 17 by hmrspaul