Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[K14]

.....but the other loco behind rather caught my eye. An Armstrong 4-4-0....? (Drools.....!)

Dean Single - 3071 Emlyn

[Mikkel]

The converted Oxford Dean Goods is now ready for painting. In case you're not yet bored with close-ups of white styrene, here are some photos.
 
 Handrails were fitted using my well established formula: "Measure once, drill thrice !"   
 

 
 
 
Boiler washout plugs from Coast Line Models. Alan appears to have temporarily withdrawn these, I hope they’ll return. 
 

 

 
I fashioned a new reversing lever, and fitted a loco jack from the Broad Gauge Society.
 

 
 
 
Photos of the uprights on which loco jacks were mounted during this period are rare, here's a crop from an image I found (left). Also a standing version, which I suspect was an earlier arrangement.
 

 
 
 
The curvy “piano lid” cylinder cover was a feature of some locos during the short smokebox period. They were sometimes left in open position while running! Fittings on the smokebox side were cobbled up from bits of brass. 
 

 
 
 
Bit of fun: The Oxford model comes with a choice of coarse or fine screw link couplings (bottom two).  I modified mine by adding a “Tommy bar” (top), fashioned from a part that I found in my box of watchmaker’s spares.
 

 
 
 
The loco chassis required very little modification, which means it can be easily replaced in case of a major failure. However, an indication of the ash pan and nearby components was needed. So I nicked Coachmann’s idea and made a simple screw-on unit.
 

 
 
 
The Oxford tender is generally a good representation of the 2500 gallon variant, but various mods were needed to backdate it to 1900s condition. First, the fenders were cut off using a scalpel, and the area was filed clean.
 

 
 
 
The protecting plates at the rear and front were too high for my 1900s prototype, and were therefore filed down to appropriate height.
 



 
 

Next up were the coal rails. I first tried cutting some 10 thou Evergreen on my Cameo. It looks OK here but as might be expected it was just too flimsy.
 

 
 
 
Instead I used wire from Eileen’s Emporium, halfround as per the prototype. I considered soldering but thought the joints might come undone every time I applied heat, so used epoxy. The result is quite solid. 
 

 
 
 
The uprights were fitted into holes just inside the flare of the tender sides, taking care not to break through the sides. I think the top rail sits a trifle high. Ah well.
 

 
 
 
Photos suggest that most of the fittings at the front of the Oxford tender are not appropriate for my period. Replacement toolboxes and air vents from Brassmasters (ex-Finney) were fitted. Maybe the latter should be smaller on a 2500G tender, not sure. Sandboxes were cobbled together from bits of styrene.
 

 
 
 
The front steps of the early 2500g tenders had an inward curve. A couple of round files solved this. The plastic protects the chassis from metal dust.
 

 
 
 
Here is the result. Must see what I can do about a fall plate later. 
 

 
 
 
The finished tender (less brake gear).
 

 

 
Lastly a few overall shots. Once primed, I will add a few rivets here and there. Spectacles, whistles and other minor fittings will be added after painting. But all that will have to await fairer weather.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Mikkel

[Methuselah]

Very nice indeed - look forward to seeing this painted...!

[NHY 581]

Splendid modelling. Looks tremendous now but I suspect painting will elevate it even further.

 

 

Rob.

[bgman]

What a worthwhile labour of love !

 

Some excellent modelling to produce a back dated DG, superb work Mikkel.

 

( At this rate you'll probably finish it before I can on my 7mm model   )

 

I will look forward to the next stage of your build, very well done indeed.

 

G

[Compound2632]

This has advanced surreptitiously - I'm getting left well behind...

 

I missed you shortening the smokebox - I though that was one of my two unique selling points - the other being the S2 boiler. 

 

Your tender has water pick up apparatus? I've chopped off the whole bulkhead/water filler with the intention of replacing with a plain cylindrical water filler.

 

I'm also looking into chickening out of hand-made plasticard splashers - I'm shortly to find out of the splashers Brassmasters do for the Bachmann 3F are close enough.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Compound2632

[Dave John]

Very nice Mikkel. 

 

There is pattern here. You have made a cracking model based on a few of the rtr parts. I have made a model with 4 of the original kit parts. Really we have both ended up as scratchbuilders. 

 

Down the line I will end up with a pair of RoS 812s . I have a sneaking feeling that I will wish I just started from scratch..... 

[Brassey]

Rather neat work Mikkel.  Looking forward to the next instalment. Peter

[Mikkel]

Many thanks everyone for the buttons and comments 

 

Yes I'm looking forward to seeing it painted as well. The big compromise is of course that dividing line down the boiler, and it will be interesting to see how that turns out once it's all tarted up. I know enough not to expect miracles though, a line is a line. Even so, the compromise is acceptable to me given the running qualities and the learning I have had from this project. Irrational as it may seem, I gain great satisfaction from a process like this   

 

Stephen, regarding the water pick up apparatus. I removed the water scoop as I couldn't see any in the period photos of Dean Goods in the Clements book that I have. However, doubt then set in as it is hard to see what goes on beneath the tender in some photos. Moreover, there is this rather nice photo of 2467 (the subject of Dave's 7mm model): https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/323570241830_/GWR-2301-CLASS-DEAN-GOODS-0-6-0-No2467-IN.jpg. So I'm currently sitting on the fence regarding that. Miss P has been looking at the issue, but I'm not sure if there is a straightforward answer.

[Edwardian]

Superb work on the Dean.

 

Not for the faint-hearted, however!

[Miss Prism]

Miss P has been looking at the issue, but I'm not sure if there is a straightforward answer.

 

I'm struggling on that matter. So far, I've only seen a few pics of 2500g tenders that definitely have scoops:

 

- behind 2467 at Weymouth (as mentioned by Mikkel);

- behind 2378 on Rowington troughs.

 

There seems to be a big gap between the photographic evidence and the operational policy. I'm of the current view that although lots A37, A38, A39, A41, A42, A43 and A44 (a total of approx 120 units) were probably built with scoops, and deployed primarily with medium- and big-wheeled 4-4-0s, most of these tenders had their scoops removed when associated with locos whose duties did not require filling up on the move. This practice of removing and fitting scoops seems overly fussy, and contrary to the policy of having 'standardised' units in the tender pool.

 

Scoop handles and scoop wayshafts tended to remain in place when the scoops themselves were not present.

 

3000g units also seemed to lose their scoops on a regular or permanent basis. The only tenders that kept their scoops were 3500g and 4000g.

[bgman]

Many thanks everyone for the buttons and comments 

 

Yes I'm looking forward to seeing it painted as well. The big compromise is of course that dividing line down the boiler, and it will be interesting to see how that turns out once it's all tarted up. I know enough not to expect miracles though, a line is a line. Even so, the compromise is acceptable to me given the running qualities and the learning I have had from this project. Irrational as it may seem, I gain great satisfaction from a process like this 

 

Stephen, regarding the water pick up apparatus. I removed the water scoop as I couldn't see any in the period photos of Dean Goods in the Clements book that I have. However, doubt then set in as it is hard to see what goes on beneath the tender in some photos. Moreover, there is this rather nice photo of 2467 (the subject of Dave's 7mm model): https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/323570241830_/GWR-2301-CLASS-DEAN-GOODS-0-6-0-No2467-IN.jpg. So I'm currently sitting on the fence regarding that. Miss P has been looking at the issue, but I'm not sure if there is a straightforward answer.

 

 

 

I'm struggling on that matter. So far, I've only seen a few pics of 2500g tenders that definitely have scoops:

 

- behind 2467 at Weymouth (as mentioned by Mikkel);

- behind 2378 on Rowington troughs.

 

There seems to be a big gap between the photographic evidence and the operational policy. I'm of the current view that although lots A37, A38, A39, A41, A42, A43 and A44 (a total of approx 120 units) were probably built with scoops, and deployed primarily with medium- and big-wheeled 4-4-0s, most of these tenders had their scoops removed when associated with locos whose duties did not require filling up on the move. This practice of removing and fitting scoops seems overly fussy, and contrary to the policy of having 'standardised' units in the tender pool.

 

Scoop handles and scoop wayshafts tended to remain in place when the scoops themselves were not present.

 

3000g units also seemed to lose their scoops on a regular or permanent basis. The only tenders that kept their scoops were 3500g and 4000g.

 

 

I can fully relate to the dilemma on the scoop issue.

 

When building the 2000 gall tender for my 7mm version there were no specific photographs or details that I could find either. Miss P kindly looked for me as well and I have decided rightly or wrongly to omit the handle which would operate a scoop on my model.

 

The kit allows for either a 2000 or 2500 gall tender but the preamble in the instructions states that 2000 gall tenders didn't have water scoops fitted so some modification had to be carried out with the "undergubbins" for mine.

 

As with your boiler line comment its something that I am happy to live with ( attached a cruel close up taken using my iPhone ).

 

 

Still unfinished but sound decoder fitted and running nicely.

 

G

 

Edit - original posted photograph removed and edited to show darker areas which were not visible when uploaded

Edited January 14, 2019 by bgman

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Mikkel - back in full swing so to speak.

 

I love the attention to detail - down to protecting the already finished work with the plastic bag.

 

The converted Oxford Dean Goods is now ready for painting.

Speak again

 

Ray

[Compound2632]

Stephen, regarding the water pick up apparatus. I removed the water scoop as I couldn't see any in the period photos of Dean Goods in the Clements book that I have. However, doubt then set in as it is hard to see what goes on beneath the tender in some photos. Moreover, there is this rather nice photo of 2467 (the subject of Dave's 7mm model): https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/323570241830_/GWR-2301-CLASS-DEAN-GOODS-0-6-0-No2467-IN.jpg. So I'm currently sitting on the fence regarding that. Miss P has been looking at the issue, but I'm not sure if there is a straightforward answer.

 

My removal of the pick-up gear and the D-shaped housing for the water filler was based on this statement on gwr.org.uk: "Water scoops began to be fitted from the mid 1890s, with the first set of water troughs entering use in 1895". I reasoned that No. 2390, from Lot 82 of 1890 and based at Wolverhampton would have neither been originally equiped with, nor subsequently have need for, a tender with water pick-up apparatus, at my target date of 1902/3, but I am willing to stand corrected, as a tyro in Great Western matters. Miss Prism put a fly in the ointment by pointing out that the engine in my reference photo, No. 2399, has a 3,000 gal tender rather than a 2,500 gal tender - she had been my first choice, being a Wolverhampton-based engine, but the S2 boiler dates didn't work out. Anyway, that tender clearly does not have pick-up.

 

I continue to fall back on the useful fact that I don't have a photo of No. 2390 at or before my target date!

[mswjr]

- behind 2467 at Weymouth                 Look at the size of those coal lumps, If you put lumps of that size on a model it would look wrong,but its not, And the poor fireman has to break it first.

[Miss Prism]

My removal of the pick-up gear and the D-shaped housing for the water filler was based on this statement on gwr.org.uk: "Water scoops began to be fitted from the mid 1890s, with the first set of water troughs entering use in 1895".

 

It was never my intention to address whatever formed 'the filler' on tenders that were not initially or subsequently fitted with a scoop. To me, ' the filler' is distinct from the 'scoop', the filler being the shape on top of the tank ceiling and the scoop including the lowerable bit at the bottom of the chute as well as the chute itself. For tenders never fitted with a scoop, I assume there was no 'dome', but the filler was the familiar coffin shape.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

It was never my intention to address whatever formed 'the filler' on tenders that were not initially or subsequently fitted with a scoop. To me, ' the filler' is distinct from the 'scoop', the filler being the shape on top of the tank ceiling and the scoop including the lowerable bit at the bottom of the chute as well as the chute itself. For tenders never fitted with a scoop, I assume there was no 'dome', but the filler was the familiar coffin shape.

 

I'm getting into deep water here and in danger of exposing my fundamental ignorance of things Great Western. Tenders of later days (from 1910, says gwr.org.uk) had a large mushroom-head-like dome aft of the rear coal-space bulkhead, this providing better distribution of the water shooting up from the scoop - per the nice sectioned sketch of a Collett 4,000 gal tender; the filler is separate and well aft - a cylindrical tube with a lid. What you call the coffin is, I think, what I've referred to as being D-shaped; this, I understood, is the cylindrical filler but with an extension forwards to the bulkhead, performing the same function as the later dome. I had assumed that this extension would be absent from a tender built without water pick-up apparatus and not subsequently fitted with it; I had taken it for granted there would just be the cylindrical filler. I've had a look at the instructions for the Finney 2,500 gal tender, this seems to confirm that there was just the small filler well aft. I take it for granted that the Finney kit is based on the best available research and drawings.

 

Photos of engines at the period of interest are mostly taken from ground level; certainly good views of the tender top rear were not the photographer's priority!

Edited January 14, 2019 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

Stephen, you're right, for the earliest tenders (both 2500g and 3000g) without scoops, "the water filler was a cylindrical casing" as MF states, i.e. there was nothing acting as a 'dome'. (It is thought that scoops became a default fitting on new build tenders from late 1899, and would necessitate the D-shaped coffin.)

The problem in question here is therefore how quickly, and to what extent, scoops (and therefore things acting as domes) were deployed on the pre-1899 tenders. My feeling is that by the time fenders were starting to be fitted (starting in 1903), the D-shape coffin became an associated standard fitting whether or not a scoop and its chute had been fitted to the bottom of the tank.  I say this only on the basis that I have not seen a fendered tender which does not have a shaped filler. That said, some photo might come to light one day that will blow this sequence of suppostions to smithereens. There is much we don't know.

 

This leaves us with an interim period, and your 2390 with its early 2500g sits right in the middle of it, where our current lack of knowledge is particularly notable. I will need to dwell on the words used on gwr.org, to see if the right level of ignorance can be better conveyed.

[Dave John]

"Photos of engines at the period of interest are mostly taken from ground level; certainly good views of the tender top rear were not the photographer's priority!"

 

 

Er, aye. On the plus side the CR had no water troughs.

 

Though the crews seemed to mess about with tool boxes. Sometimes you just have to guess. 

[MikeOxon]

The converted Oxford Dean Goods is now ready for painting. In case you're not yet bored with close-ups of white styrene, here are some photos...................

 

 

Just looked up from my struggles to understand 3D printing .... I think your model looks extremely handsome and will, no doubt, be even better when painted.  I'm pleased to see you are now including more brass fittings - these tender rails look splendid and it seems a pity to paint them!

[Dana Ashdown]

For anyone interested in the 2000 gallon Dean tender, here is the drawing for the ones first supplied with the Duke/Devon class, from one of O.S. Nock's books.

[Mikkel]

Thanks Dana, that's a good drawing and shows the cylindrical filler well. I must have missed those Nock 4-4-0 books, must have a look for them.

[Miss Prism]

What's the tall vertical fixture above the tank? I thought at first it was merely an elaborate tank vent, but its plumbing goes down to somewhere on the front lower left-hand side underneath the platform.

 

(The same fixture can be seen on the last designs of broad gauge tenders.)

Edited January 20, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Ian Major]

Were these tenders designed to attach to locomotives with crosshead water feed pumps? If so it would be the return pipe for the excess water from the pump.

 

Ian.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Ian Major

[Northroader]

Agreed, I think it’s to do with boiler feed arrangements. This was done originally by a feed pump, but as this was continually working when the loco was moving, there would have to be a means of returning surplus water to the tender. Gifford injectors were fitted from 1865, but the RCTS book on GWR locos, part one, states that pumps continued to be used as well. Ahrons in his British Steam locos book implies engineers were glad to see them go, but it looks as if the GWR held on to them for quite some time. Dean did some chopping and changing with injector positioning and clackbox placement in the 1890s, and I would infer that as part of this the feed pumps were removed, which ties in with the disappearance of the tall pipe on the tender.