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Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench


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51 minutes ago, Anotheran said:

I try to get my waggons around the 25g per axle mark. So at £8.50 for 15g this could end up as the most expensive component!

 

£0.50 for 60g... that sounds much more like my kind of price point. I really like the look of these and will give them a go. Thank you!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Jack is the man to thank as he suggested them. And yes, I hadn't noticed the price of those moldable fish weights!

 

So the suggestions have included golf club weights, fishing weights, lead shot and finger bandage...  surely this is the most creative hobby on the planet :)

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12 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Please keep us posted on the Dean goods build Mikkel, its looking fantastic.


Also, I'm seriously envious. Wish I had a non-Belpaire version. They were much more attractive in that guise.

 

Thanks Martin, although I expect some will be tired of this drawn out build by now!

 

For the paint job, I have decided to give the Belton RAL 6007 another go.  I have often seen it recommended for GWR green. Last time I tested it, the colour looked good in natural light,  but  horrible under the lights I used for the layout. But in hindsight I should have tested it more thoroughly, including priming the test piece first and giving it two layers. Have also bought a can of Belton RAL 6009, to see what that looks like.

 

belton.jpg.e76b64e69ed3b796cb7845a11aab5d1e.jpg

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1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

Please keep us posted on the Dean goods build Mikkel, its looking fantastic.


Also, I'm seriously envious. Wish I had a non-Belpaire version. They were much more attractive in that guise.

 

I believe the Brassmaster ex Finney kit will give you the option of a round topped firebox in 4mm. I dont think the 7mm version has yet been re-introduced by the Finney7 group. I do have a Finney kit in stock awaiting assembly

Don

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22 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks Martin, although I expect some will be tired of this drawn out build by now!

 

For the paint job, I have decided to give the Belton RAL 6007 another go.  I have often seen it recommended for GWR green. Last time I tested it, the colour looked good in natural light,  but  horrible under the lights I used for the layout. But in hindsight I should have tested it more thoroughly, including priming the test piece first and giving it two layers. Have also bought a can of Belton RAL 6009, to see what that looks like.

 

belton.jpg.e76b64e69ed3b796cb7845a11aab5d1e.jpg

 

British racing green may be suitable if you can get hold of it outside the UK.

Wikipedia suggests RAL6005.

 

I have seen two locos painted by different experts which did not look at all the same colour.

 

Don

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I think 6005 (British racing green) might be a bit too light for my interpretation, but will have a look if 6007 and 6009 don't work. The recommendations I have seen are to go for "deep bronze green" as used by some Landrover enthusiasts. Of course the disagreement then starts as to what RAL code captures that best.

 

It would be nice if the lid colours were reliable but they rarely seem to be.  Not to mention screen colours!

 

I've found a good spot for spraying in the yard of the apartment block where we live. It is clean, undisturbed and protected from the wind. Not sure though what the neighbours think about the new guy lurking behind the rubbish bin shed :D

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I haven't read back through the thread for earlier discussion of the nuances of GWR loco green - I'm sure there must have been pages of it! :)

 

So this might be missing the point but for my own interest I grabbed the RGB values of RAL 6007, RAL 6009 and the two middle chrome greens cited by gwr.org.uk and put them alongside each other:

63842317_GWRgreens.png.284a4e6978b7d497baca37485c7c7560.png

 

Although your monitor might not give colour reproduction that you trust to convert to real paint, this at least shows the greens relative to each other.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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18 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I haven't read back through the thread for earlier discussion of the nuances of GWR loco green - I'm sure there must have been pages of it! :)

 

So this might missing the point but for my own interest I grabbed the RGB values of RAL 6007, RAL 6009 and the two middle chrome greens cited by gwr.org.uk and put them alongside each other:

63842317_GWRgreens.png.284a4e6978b7d497baca37485c7c7560.png

 

Although your monitor might not give colour reproduction that you trust to convert to real paint this at least allows the greens to be assessed relative to each other.

 

 

On my screen the RAL greens look like different shades of grey.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I haven't read back through the thread for earlier discussion of the nuances of GWR loco green - I'm sure there must have been pages of it! :)

 

So this might be missing the point but for my own interest I grabbed the RGB values of RAL 6007, RAL 6009 and the two middle chrome greens cited by gwr.org.uk and put them alongside each other:

 

Although your monitor might not give colour reproduction that you trust to convert to real paint, this at least shows the greens relative to each other.

 

 

Hi Phil. When I did the gwr.org.uk colour samples, I based them on Chris Wesson's site (now defunct). I reckoned he knew what he was talking about, and I still think they make good sense.

 

Your RGB  sample there looks quite different to  the Belton RAL 6007 when I last tested it. It's the one on the right here:

 

image.png.ef16de203c01cf05ad6671d15af8e579.png

 

My issue last time was that it looked wrong under artificial light, so I didn't go further with it. However as you can see my testing wasn't really proper - no primer and only one quick layer. Will test it more properly this time and report back. 

 

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the trouble with trying to interpret pigment colours on a computer screen is that the colour reflected from a painted surface depends very much on the brightness and hue of the incident light.  Apart from that, the colour we see on an object is very dependent on the context - the area covered by the colour and the colours of surrounding objects.  i have shown the following diagram before, which illustrates these points rather vividly.  Check the RGB values, if you don't believe me.

 

illusion2.jpg.3fb04ab84fcdd73c0bc3a35325b0b4e6.jpg

 

My own approach is to mix my colours so that they 'look' right to me, in the context where I use them :)

Edited by MikeOxon
typos
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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

When I did the gwr.org.uk colour samples, I based them on Chris Wesson's site (now defunct). I reckoned he knew what he was talking about, and I still think they make good sense.

 

For info, I updated Mikkel's original jpeg colour patches with hex code blocks. This helps to obviate different devices making different color encoding implementations of a jpeg. (Although the jpeg spec has remained remarkably solid over many decades.)
 

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I copied the hex codes when I made the panel above and I obtained hex codes for the RAL colours from two independent sources.

 

The two gwr.org.uk colours have very similar hues and are highly saturated (not much white mixed in). RAL 6009 is a similar hue but very much less saturated and RAL 6007 is a very different hue (much yellower) and again much less saturated than the gwr.org.uk colours.

 

I know that you can't really compare photo colours with screen colours but just for interest: Mikkel's photo of Belton RAL 6007 is slightly bluer than the gwr.org.uk colours, not as saturated but it is closer in saturation than the RAL hex values are.

1102095137_GWRgreens2.png.f8f65441173931a1ba346ce95173fc2c.png

Edited by Harlequin
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4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Interesting stuff Phil. So in theory, I just need to need two layers of varnish and it will be spot on for pre-1928 :)

 

Yes Mikkel, except that according to GWW, Middle Chrome Green was introduced in 1906 with the livery change of that year and the swatch at the back of the book for the previous colour introduced in 1881 is darker still. Peter

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post-8525-0-50343400-1407085133_thumb.jpgpost-8525-0-72685100-1407085147_thumb.jpgpost-8525-0-64383600-1418983034_thumb.jpgpost-8525-0-37426100-1419376911_thumb.jpgpost-8525-0-05212100-1436912359_thumb.jpg

 

From the top my Bulldog in the earlier green A. Brackenborough painted

43xx in later green

Accucraft countess in16mm

The Countess in preservation what colour did they use

VOR no 8  again what colour did they use

 

None of these are definitive but hopefully helpful 

 

Don

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On 20/06/2019 at 19:56, Mikkel said:

 

Enough to make me continue doing it on new builds. Not sure about enclosed spaces though, e.g. loco boilers - that's a different kettle I think (ha!).

 

But when can we ever be sure? Do glues ever "stabilise"?

 

Which leads to broader questions: How long do we expect a model to last? A lifetime? More? 

 

Well, the National Maritime Museum has a large collection of 18th century builder's models of ships , and the Chatham Dockyard has small scale detailed models of each of the Royal Dockyards made  in the mid 18th century ....

 

So "at least 300 years" should be the answer....:jester:

 

After all there are quite a few pre-World War 1 tinplate models around, and scratchbuilt Gauge O locos exist from the 1920s- and we take it as read they will carry on existing in decent condition.

 

Some of Peter Denny's earlier EM locos have now been running for 70 years (his J11 has run decades longer than the real things - which had a long working life...)

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Quote

and the swatch at the back of the book for the previous colour

Hello,

 I would seriously question the accuracy/authenticity of any colours shown in a book. Anything printed is variable in so many ways.

Historical colours attract more different opinions than virtually anything else.

trustytrev. :)

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41 minutes ago, trustytrev said:

Hello,

 I would seriously question the accuracy/authenticity of any colours shown in a book. Anything printed is variable in so many ways.

Historical colours attract more different opinions than virtually anything else.

trustytrev. :)

 

Not just that but they change with time, to differing degrees depending upon exposure/storage conditions and other factors.

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3 hours ago, trustytrev said:

Hello,

 I would seriously question the accuracy/authenticity of any colours shown in a book. Anything printed is variable in so many ways.

Historical colours attract more different opinions than virtually anything else.

trustytrev. :)

 

The swatches in question are not printed but I assume produced from actual paint (some have cracked overtime).  At the time this book first appeared in 1978, the last page, which featured these samples, was also available from HMRS as a separate item, which I also have filed away (somewhere).

 

This would be about the best reference we have from a reliable, properly researched source.

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Do any Swindon paint specifications for the pre- (or post-) 1906 green exist?

 

I don't think 'specifications' for colours existed, merely painted bits of wood or metal used by paintshop foremen for reference purposes. The correlation of what was applied to locos and what was on the reference swatch was probably a bit adhoc, although paintshop foremen would be experienced and sensitive to the matching process.

 

 

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