MikeOxon Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 24 minutes ago, Donw said: .............................. I am a bit puzzled by MikeOxon's paint the his loco was in the Blue-Green early livery but the paint is quoted as Dark Green and the link from Chris shows it as a nice Dark green or have I misunderstood? Don I saw it in the 'flesh' (in Homebase) a few years ago and was struck by the blue/green colour, although the pot was described as 'dark green'. I hope they've not changed the composition. It looks much greener in tungsten light but very blue in skylight. Perhaps look before you buy. 1 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 21 hours ago, Mikkel said: All these exotic liveries make me want to rebuild and repaint my No. 835. I see that particular loco has been depicted by other modellers in both Wolverhampton blue and Chocolate. Need to check up on whether that is based on fact. There is no evidence that 835 carried the chocolate livery. Most if not all of those so finished had enclosed cabs. I have pictures of 835 circa 1914 and later with an early belpaire boiler but no enclosed cab. Those locos that received the brown livery are listed in the RCTS and IIRC, 835 is not among them. This is my 835 which was spray painted with a very elderly tin of Precision Paints pre 1928 which is darker than their current pre 1906! For some reason the colour on the boiler is darker than the tank sides! Since this photo was taken she has been finished off with whistles and buffers: 16 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 19/07/2019 at 10:58, Edwardian said: The picture below was taken by me at STEAM, Swindon, in 2014. What is the name of that (Wolverhampton) green? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 22 hours ago, Mikkel said: ........................ All these exotic liveries make me want to rebuild and repaint my No. 835. I see that particular loco has been depicted by other modellers in both Wolverhampton blue and Chocolate. Need to check up on whether that is based on fact. No.835 seems to be a popular modellers' choice. When I did a very basic conversion of my K's 14xx, this is the one I chose, since I needed to find a prototype 517 with both a Belpaire firebox and inside-bearings on the trailing wheels. Fortunately, Russell's 'GW locomotives' contains a photo of No. 835 with these key features, so I numbered mine accordingly. The chocolate colour was used on a few auto-tanks so that, when sandwiched between two trailers, they would 'blend in' with the carriage livery; an early example of 'customer preference testing', perhaps. A few 517-class were even fitted with overall carriage-outline bodies but the experiment was short-lived, presumably because of the maintenance problem they caused 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, MikeOxon said: A few 517-class were even fitted with overall carriage-outline bodies but the experiment was short-lived, presumably because of the maintenance problem they caused That I would like to see... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinT Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, MikeOxon said: The chocolate colour was used on a few auto-tanks so that, when sandwiched between two trailers, they would 'blend in' with the carriage livery; an early example of 'customer preference testing', perhaps. How long did the chocolate livery last? I'm interested in the early 1920s - what are the chances that it would be seen then? Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: That I would like to see... see John Alsop's photo here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/t/trumpers_crossing_halt/ 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Brassey said: ................................. This is my 835 which was spray painted with a very elderly tin of Precision Paints pre 1928 which is darker than their current pre 1906! For some reason the colour on the boiler is darker than the tank sides! .................................. When I used that paint on my 1854ST, I thought it looked very unsaturated. Applying a coat of varnish made a huge difference and made the green colour much more obvious. Perhaps your tank sides have received more varnish or some other treatment? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, martinT said: How long did the chocolate livery last? I'm interested in the early 1920s - what are the chances that it would be seen then? Martin The auto train was introduced in the Edwardian era under Churchward circa 1905. I am currently building 1425 in chocolate for my layout dated 1912 so I am assuming the livery lasted at least till then. She was shedded at Leominster in 1912. RCTS gives the chocolate numbers as: 205 222 518 523 524 526 530 531 533 544 546 561 564 828 829 831 833 848 1155 1156 1157 1160 1161 1163 1165 1423 1425 1470 1488 Nos 533 and 833 had the overall dummy coachwork. The cladding on the two fully enclosed 517's was removed by 1911. It might also be fair to assume that at a major overhaul i.e. fitting of a belpaire firebox, that these other locos would have reverted to standard livery. But according to RCTS the "distinctive colouring was abandoned in 1924, though isolated examples survived several years afterwards". 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinT Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Brassey said: But according to RCTS the "distinctive colouring was abandoned in 1924, though isolated examples survived several years afterwards". Thanks - so it's possible that 831 retained chocolate in the early 20s. She didn't gain a belpaire 'box until June 1928, & my 1925 photo (SLS #1103 from list SPC1) shews extended smokebox & topfeed. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I doubt chocolate 517s survived into the early 20s. From 1912 (-ish), the colour adopted for 'distinctive' 517s became crimson lake. 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, MikeOxon said: When I used that paint on my 1854ST, I thought it looked very unsaturated. Applying a coat of varnish made a huge difference and made the green colour much more obvious. Perhaps your tank sides have received more varnish or some other treatment? I have not varnished this loco yet. It was a bit of an experiment to be honest and I used a very faint mist of PP two-part etched primer which is how they recommend it should be used. The loco is a hybrid of whitemetal and nickel and not too sure the primer took too well on some of the metal if at all. The cruel closeup pic shows the paint is already lifting off in parts particularly the top edge of the tanks. I have now reverted to using Halfords etch primer which goes on much thicker. I do however particularly prefer the shade of green on the boiler which is almost black. Not too sure what effect varnish might have on this colour Edited July 20, 2019 by Brassey 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 19/07/2019 at 15:18, Harlequin said: I found some interesting discussion about the consistency of GWR loco green including a reference to finding "holly green" on City of Truro during restoration here: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/gwr-light-and-dark-stone-paint.1099053/page-2 Great find. It was reassuring to read Bob Shephard in print again, so much so that I have completely rewritted gwr.org's page on loco greens. 2 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Miss Prism said: I have completely rewritten gwr.org's page on loco greens. So, contrary to much previous orthodoxy, locomotives painted at Swindon were painted the same colour from at least 1875 right down to 1945 and presumably beyond but (a) the chemical composition of the paint changed with advances in technology and (b) the perceived colour changed depending on the number of coats of varnish applied and also, one infers, the composition of the varnish and its age. The question "where are these mythical panels" remains unanswered, as does he question who was the manufacturer who binned them, having had them on loan from Pendon. I would not presume to infer the panels Precision (in the person of Bob Shephard) had were the Pendon panels; a suggestion was made recently (on another thread) that Steam might hold a set of panels, possibly in one of its specialised collections. Edited July 20, 2019 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 21, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2019 20 hours ago, Brassey said: There is no evidence that 835 carried the chocolate livery. Most if not all of those so finished had enclosed cabs. I have pictures of 835 circa 1914 and later with an early belpaire boiler but no enclosed cab. Those locos that received the brown livery are listed in the RCTS and IIRC, 835 is not among them. Thanks for this Brassey, that's why it's so dangerous to rely on other people's liveries and numbering - including pro built ones. 19 hours ago, MikeOxon said: No.835 seems to be a popular modellers' choice. Yes, by far the most modelled example I think! Probably because it was fairly long-lived and kept the inside bearings. 19 hours ago, Compound2632 said: That I would like to see... Apart from Mike's link to the Trumper's Crossing photo, there is an interesting model of an enclosed 517 on the Bambrick site - and also some other 517s including one in an interpretation of the lake livery. The easiest is to do a page search for '517' on this page: http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/latest-news/ 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mikkel said: including one in an interpretation of the lake livery. A point I hadn't appreciated before re. the lake carriage livery, though on checking gwr.or.uk I see the information had been under my nose, is that it was more akin to North Eastern than Midland livery, with the moldings being lake lined gold rather than black lined gold as for the Chocolate and cream livery. Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown? I believe so. Edited July 21, 2019 by richbrummitt Reduce quotation to relevant sentence 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Compound2632 said: A point I hadn't appreciated before re. the lake carriage livery, though on checking gwr.or.uk I see the information had been under my nose, is that it was more akin to North Eastern than Midland livery, with the moldings being lake lined gold rather than black lined gold as for the Chocolate and cream livery. Was the brown livery similarly all-over brown? Regarding all-over brown livery, I have debated this issue before elsewhere; according to the RCTS preliminary survey page 44, deep "crimson lake" was adopted in 1908. Although it appears to be received wisdom that lake was not adopted until 1912 (pre-ceded by brown) there are no contemporary records in 1912 supporting this livery change but there were plenty in 1908. It is likely that the early attempt at lake quickly weathered to brown before the GWR mastered the new livery so brown was the perceived colour until the painting improved. Again according to RCTS, County Tank 2225 was outshopped in crimson lake in July 1909 not brown. So any auto tanks that were painted circa 1905 would have been chocolate to match the coaching stock but I would ascertain that from 1908 they would have been lake. It has been suggested that the only way to establish the true facts is to check the minutes of the appropriate committees' minutes held at Kew; a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Edited July 21, 2019 by Brassey 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 On 19/07/2019 at 19:44, ChrisN said: Mike, Is it this? If so it is just what I need. Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version: 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 17 hours ago, Brassey said: It is likely that the early attempt at lake quickly weathered to brown before the GWR mastered the new livery so brown was the perceived colour until the painting improved. That sounds plausible to me, and ties in with the effect of a few layers of the varnish being used at the time. Quote So any auto tanks that were painted circa 1905 would have been chocolate to match the coaching stock Very logical, but the problem is that the colour the models have been painted in uses a lighter medium brown, and nothing like chocolate. Possibly they tried chocolate, but it looked too dark (not enough distinction from the black?), so they used something lighter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted July 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 hours ago, MikeOxon said: Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version: That does look very different to the link Chris found. Much more in keeping with the descriptions of the blue/green. Don 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Miss Prism said: Very logical, but the problem is that the colour the models have been painted in uses a lighter medium brown, and nothing like chocolate. Possibly they tried chocolate, but it looked too dark (not enough distinction from the black?), so they used something lighter. Sorry Miss P that link does not work. Here are some interesting others: https://images.app.goo.gl/r4sbS987P26a69YS7 https://images.app.goo.gl/xhnXwQ8JDJAMnCin9 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 On 23/07/2019 at 00:17, Brassey said: Sorry Miss P that link does not work. My browser has no problem with it. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobjUK Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I noticed that the Railmatch green I'm using - and now the examples posted in thread, eg. On 19/07/2019 at 19:44, ChrisN said: Mike, Is it this? If so it is just what I need. and On 22/07/2019 at 13:47, MikeOxon said: Just found the following image on the Homebase website, which looks like my version: All look extremely close to "British Racing Green", as the examples in these photos: I think the difference in shade between those is down to overall lighting / image brightness & all the greens are very close? I wonder if someone actually copied that basic colour for railway use, it's been used in motor racing since the early 1900s... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 12 hours ago, RobjUK said: I wonder if someone actually copied that basic colour for railway use, it's been used in motor racing since the early 1900s... Freightliner locos are painted British racing green. Does that count? Dark greens like these were very common in Victorian and Edwardian times, as the paint was hard wearing and the dark shade hid the dirt. Half of Victorian Britain was painted various shade of dark green, rather than it being something specific to the railways. It looks nice on a loco, but I don't think I'd paint my dining room that colour..... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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