Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[MikeOxon]

The use of chrome orange for lining dates back to William Dean's period from 1881.  There were various changes to the way in which the lining was arranged and the lining diagram after 1906 (referred to by Miss Prism, above) was not the same as the arrangement before 1906.  My source of information is Great Western Way.

 

The first scheme, used from 1882 to 1906 comprised a black central line flanked by two 1/8" wide orange chrome lines, the overall width being 1-1/8". 

 

After 1906, however, this changed to a central black line (1" wide) flanked by two 1/2" wide green (body colour) lines, which were, in turn, flanked by two 1/8" orange chrome lines. The overall width of this later scheme was, therefore, considerably larger, at 2¼"

 

There were more elaborate schemes that were applied to a few express classes, including the 'Dean singles'.

 

I have described the earlier (pre-1906) scheme in some detail in my blog at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/12905-home-made-lining-lettering-1/

 

[Methuselah]

MikeOxon;- Are the available transfers then of the correct width for either period?

[Mikkel]

I'm guessing both are overscale but am away from home so can't measure them.

 

Regarding the arrangement of the lining: Here is the photo of the Fox and HMRS lining again. The Fox transfers seem to follow the pre-1906 pattern, while the HMRS transfers will produce the post-1906 pattern when applied to a green loco.

 

 

So the Fox lining would have been more appropriate for my 1902 Dean Goods. I used HMRS out of habit and because I am no fan of waterslide (but I may have to live with that in the future).

 

PS: Although I would add that once the HMRS lining has been applied, the "green" (actually transparent) lines appear black, so the effect is virtually the same. 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

10 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

MikeOxon;- Are the available transfers then of the correct width for either period?

I think Mikkel's post, above, illustrates the situation.  Since I model earlier periods, I generally create my own lining, as described in my blog.

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

The use of chrome orange for lining dates back to William Dean's period from 1881.  There were various changes to the way in which the lining was arranged and the lining diagram after 1906 (referred to by Miss Prism, above) was not the same as the arrangement before 1906.  My source of information is Great Western Way.

 

The first scheme, used from 1882 to 1906 comprised a black central line flanked by two 1/8" wide orange chrome lines, the overall width being 1-1/8". 

 

 

Thanks Mike; that brings comfort to a bodger armed with and orange (?) Posca pen and a Rotring pen for black. My thinking is that there is no harm in making the chrome orange a little too wide, especially as the plan is to try to tone everything down to give the impression of paintwork and lining that's getting on for seven years old. I'm thinking of a first weathering wash based on green, followed by the usual dirty wash.

 

Got to do more on building the engine first!

Edited November 5, 2019 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

26 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Since I model earlier periods, I generally create my own lining, as described in my blog.

 

Here are the links to Mike's posts on lining:

 

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 1

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 2

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 2a

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 3

[MikeOxon]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks Mike; that brings comfort to a bodger armed with and orange (?) Posca pen and a Rotring pen for black. My thinking is that there is no harm in making the chrome orange a little too wide, especially as the plan is to try to tone everything down to give the impression of paintwork and lining that's getting on for seven years old. I'm thinking of a first weathering wash based on green, followed by the usual dirty wash.

 

Got to do more on building the engine first!

I believe that the finest Posca pens have 0.7mm tips, which is 2.1" in 4mm/foot scale.  Do you intend to paint the orange first and then overpaint most of the line with a very fine Rotring tip? -

 

[Harlequin]

49 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Here are the links to Mike's posts on lining:

 

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 1

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 2

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 2a

Home-made Lining & Lettering - 3

 

Very interesting! Some observations:

 

Firstly, It might be easier and more flexible to use a drawing program to create the graphics. That's for three reasons:

1. Everything is always editable in a drawing program - it's only committed to pixels when you print or export as a bitmap. That means mistakes are more easily fixed and it's easy to copy inidividual parts and re-use them.
2. The graphics in a drawing program are described mathematically so a curve is a perfect curve all the time you are editing it - again until it's committed to pixels in your printer.
3. Drawing programs usually have more powerful tools for making precise lines and shapes. For instance, most can define a "brush stroke" which would allow the orange, green and black elements of GWR lining to be drawn at the right spacing along any centre line you want to draw. That makes life much easier!

Secondly, Since we're interested in very fine lines we need to think about how big a printer pixel size is compared to the line width. If a pixel is bigger than the desired line width then the resulting line may be wider than expected and have jaggy corners. Some good printer drivers and some graphics software automatically overcome this by "anti-aliasing" the lines. Anti-aliasing works out the proportion of each pixel that would be covered by the thin line and mixes the line colour with the background colour by that proportion instead of simply setting the whole pixel to the line colour.

 

Sorry to get this technical but I have the feeling that by taking these things into account it might be possible to improve the results. It needs a bit of measuring, a bit of maths and the time to experiment!

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Harlequin

[MikeOxon]

26 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Very interesting! Some observations:

 

Firstly, It might be easier and more flexible to use a drawing program to create the graphics. ...........

Secondly, ...................... we need to think about how big a printer pixel size is compared to the line width.

Sorry to get this technical but I have the feeling that by taking these things into account it might be possible to improve the results. It needs a bit of measuring, a bit of maths and the time to experiment!

 

 

These are all good points.  I used the software that I had available to me at that time.  Printer dot sizes are usually much smaller than screen pixels, since each colour is produced by a combination of several different inks, as shown in the microscope view of some of my home-made lining transfers

 

 

 

I expect that software and printers have both advanced since I wrote those posts back in 2013 so it may well be possible to improve on my old methods

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by MikeOxon

[Castle]

Hi Mikkel,

 

That Dean goods looks amazing! Wonderful stuff as always - thanks for sharing.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I believe that the finest Posca pens have 0.7mm tips, which is 2.1" in 4mm/foot scale.  Do you intend to paint the orange first and then overpaint most of the line with a very fine Rotring tip? -

 

 

That would be my plan. I'm currently experimenting with carriage lining on the same plan. A good gloss varnish between the Posca pen line and the Rotring line seems to be essential - the steel nib of the Rotring will otherwise drag the Posca paint.

[Penlan]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...... I'm currently experimenting with carriage lining on the same plan. 

Broad yellow 'ish stripe then a dark line down the middle.

That's the way I do my LNWR carriage lining, copied from Philip Millard some 40+ years ago.
I believe Jol uses the same method.

[Miss Prism]

Guy Williams' favoured paint colour for GWR 'gold' coach lining was what he called 'pale straw' (mixed from a couple of Humbrol colours, can't remember which ones, but probably long defunct now anyway).

 

For comparison, here, if my transcription of Pantone 135C is correct, is what Pete Speller of the GWS is currently using -  rgb 255 198 88:

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Miss Prism
colour swatch added

[Miss Prism]

chrome orange: rgb 255 128 64

 

 

[Compound2632]

Of course the colour used on full-sized locomotives may not be the best choice for a 4 mm/ft scale model.

[Miss Prism]

Indeed.

 

[Harlequin]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course the colour used on full-sized locomotives may not be the best choice for a 4 mm/ft scale model.

 

23 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Indeed.

 

 

This is related to what I was saying above: if you can draw/paint the line thin enough, i.e. to correct scale, then I think the exact prototype colour should look right.

 

However, if you have to draw a thicker line then by mixing the line colour with the background colour it should have the same visual "weight" as the thinnner, brighter line.

 

Edit: Furthermore, I'm suggesting that the correct colour mix can be calculated from the ratio of the scale line width to the actual line width - although I realise it may need to be tweaked after that.

 

That's my theory. I really must go away try it!

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Harlequin

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course the colour used on full-sized locomotives may not be the best choice for a 4 mm/ft scale model.

There's a post about the scale effect of colour by Martyn de Young on the County Gate website at http://www.009.cd2.com/lynton_and_barnstaple_modelling/1.htm

 

His overall theme is that model colours should be less saturated than 'real' colours to account for the different distances from which they are viewed.

 

In the end, it's a matter of personal taste but, in my own experience, it is good to use less saturated colours for back-scenes.

[Denbridge]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Guy Williams' favoured paint colour for GWR 'gold' coach lining was what he called 'pale straw' (mixed from a couple of Humbrol colours, can't remember which ones, but probably long defunct now anyway).

 

For comparison, here, if my transcription of Pantone 135C is correct, is what Pete Speller of the GWS is currently using -  rgb 255 198 88:

 

 

 

 

Guy mixed his colour using red oxide and straw according to his original Ian Allen book"Model Locomotive Construction "

[Miss Prism]

Red oxide?????

 

[Compound2632]

I can see that a touch of any red could give the colour just the "lift" needed.

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Red oxide?????

 

That's what Guy wrote.

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Red oxide?????

 

The quote from Guys book is his shade for the loco lining orange. I don't know what he used for coaches, as per your original post. 

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

The quote from Guys book is his shade for the loco lining orange. I don't know what he used for coaches, as per your original post. 

 

Ah. That would have helped understanding your post. No wonder I was flummoxed!

 

[bgman]

Whilst on the subject of producing home made transfers, as Mike has done,  may I ask if anyone here has used a laser printer with laser specific transfer paper ?

 

I am lead to believe that it makes for a better result in as much as there isn't a specific need to allow for drying and coating with varnish.

 

That said I would probably varnish as a safeguard should I go down that route.

 

G