tom q vaxy Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 An interesting archive image of some of the Australian cricket team on tour but look behind them. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) I note the "South Western Railway" branding on the tilt wagons. The company tried to drop the "London &" in public at, I think, a relatively late date. Which tour is this? The only post-war pre-grouping tour was 1921; the style of dress looks more pre-war - 1909 / 1912? Edited December 2, 2019 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: The company tried to drop the "London &" in public at, I think, a relatively late date. Drummond truied putting SWR on a few early locos, but was stopped by the Board, so I am not sure about dropping the "London &" dates, or how widespread it was. Why would they want to drop the name of the capital of the British Empire from their name? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Regularity said: Why would they want to drop the name of the capital of the British Empire from their name? My thought also. (I note there isn't much room for 'London &' on the side of the cart.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 perhaps it was to emphasise the rivalry between SWR and GWR? L&SWR is a bit of a mouthful anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2019 Maybe "London &" is simply covered by the sheeting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Regularity said: Drummond truied putting SWR on a few early locos, but was stopped by the Board, so I am not sure about dropping the "London &" dates, or how widespread it was. Why would they want to drop the name of the capital of the British Empire from their name? Dugald was possibly hankering after his Ayrshire roots? Peter eventually landed the "home" job; I haven't found out the date of his appointment but there were a few months in 1912 when the Drummond brothers were both Locomotive Superintendent of the South Western! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Jack Benson said: An interesting archive image of some of the Australian cricket team on tour but look behind them. Cheers you'd have hoped our colonial cousins would have been provided with more salubrious transport, but hey, ho... 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 2, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Harlequin said: Maybe "London &" is simply covered by the sheeting? Doesn't look like it. These pictures are dated Nine Elms, October 18, 1918. The first one has lettering similar to the "cricket" photo above, the other three appear to have a different style. Edit: Actually, I think the lettering is just not clear/worn on the others. Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/parcels-piled-high-in-a-south-western-railways-horse-drawn-news-photo/3138617?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/driver-is-perched-high-up-above-his-horses-on-a-cart-piled-news-photo/3139898?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/crates-and-boxes-piled-up-on-a-wagon-which-has-loaded-up-at-news-photo/3138766?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/crates-and-barrels-tied-on-to-a-cart-at-nine-elms-goods-news-photo/3138774?adppopup=true Edited December 2, 2019 by Mikkel 13 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Mikkel said: Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/driver-is-perched-high-up-above-his-horses-on-a-cart-piled-news-photo/3139898?adppopup=true Oh look - another D299 number for the collection: 53156. Edited December 2, 2019 by Compound2632 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2019 @Jack Benson's photo featured road vehicle No. 638; this same vehicle appears with others of similar type, sheeted in the same way and similarly loaded in pairs on 28 ft road vehicle trucks (SR diagram 1645), as plate 121 in G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1984). The caption states: "A very common sight in LSWR days were trains of horse-drawn meat vans loaded onto road vehicle trucks." The photo is "probably at Southampton Docks about 1910". The style of lettering is the same as the examples @Mikkel has posted. The title page photo in the same book shows a couple of road vehicle trucks - four road vehicles - in a Nine Elms - Woking goods train "probably just before World War I". 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 3, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) Horse drawn meat vans, that's interesting. The Goods and Not So Goods site has this to say: Quote Most horse drawn vehicles were shipped as a one-off load, classed as wagon load traffic and attached to conventional mixed goods trains. Where an entire train load of horse drawn vehicles has been photographed these are normally military standard 'General Service' waggons being moved for the army. [...] One exception was a service operated by the LSWR for horse drawn meat vans. The vans had their wheels removed in London and were then craned onto purpose built flat wagons (coded RUCK and later used for containers...). They ran as a block train down to the docks at Southampton where the vans were loaded with chilled imported meat. The train was then taken back to London as an express goods service where the vans were craned off the wagons and their wheels re-attached for deliveries to butchers and the like. [http://www.igg.org.uk/rail/7-fops/fo-road.htm] And: Quote One curiosity was the pioneering use of multi-modal transport for chilled meat landed at Southampton. The meat was loaded into horse drawn road vans and taken to the railway where the van wheels were removed and the van bodies were loaded onto railway flat wagons to be sent to London. On reaching their destination the van bodies were craned off and their road wheels re-fitted. This enabled the Smithfield market to receive chilled meat about eight hours after it left the stores in Southampton. [https://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app2/sr/lswr.htm] There is no date given for this. Jack Benson's photo shows the wheels firmly on. Edited December 3, 2019 by Mikkel 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 3, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I note the "South Western Railway" branding on the tilt wagons. The company tried to drop the "London &" in public at, I think, a relatively late date. Which tour is this? The only post-war pre-grouping tour was 1921; the style of dress looks more pre-war - 1909 / 1912? A way to date the photo would be to identify the players in the photo. Dates for all Australian cricket tours in England are here. The 1905 team are illustrated here: https://www.alamy.com/australian-cricket-team-1905-image66065835.html. Comparing with Jack Benson's photo, is that Cotter (middle), Kelly (moustache on the right) and Mc Leod (far left)? Quote Jack Benson said: The full 1909 Autralian team can be seen here: https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/historical-collection-158-7665056ch. The 1909 Australian team was captained by Monty Noble. He could be several of the men in the photo. The England team was captained by Archie Mac Laren. Is that him on the left, playing host? I need to get a life Edited December 3, 2019 by Mikkel 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Danish cuisine, Aussie cricket, what’s next? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 A quicker way to date the photo may be to ask @Jack Benson where he got it from. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) On Mikkel's images above (without sheets) we can only see "South Western Railway" in a cartouche on the bottom horizontal board. But on at least two images you can see an empty cartouche on the board above it - looking like it's either awaiting lettering or used to contain lettering. Edited December 3, 2019 by Harlequin 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 Yes, certainly on 759 and less clearly on 784. But 174 has a different style with the cartouche at the rear end only, with SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY in two lines. It was probably realised that there was little point in putting the company name on the upper panel if it was routinely covered up with a sheet. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 3, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 10 hours ago, Simond said: Danish cuisine, Aussie cricket, what’s next? Everything is connected: Shipment of Danish bacon lands at Southampton, ready for pick-up by LSWR service of horsedrawn meat vans. Aussie cricket team happens to land in Southampton on the same day. 9 hours ago, Compound2632 said: A quicker way to date the photo may be to ask @Jack Benson where he got it from. Found it: "The Australian team arrive in Southampton, April 27, 1912" http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/image/index.html?object=60299 7 hours ago, Harlequin said: On Mikkel's images above (without sheets) we can only see "South Western Railway" in a cartouche on the bottom horizontal board. But on at least two images you can see an empty cartouche on the board above it - looking like it's either awaiting lettering or used to contain lettering. 7 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Yes, certainly on 759 and less clearly on 784. But 174 has a different style with the cartouche at the rear end only, with SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY in two lines. It was probably realised that there was little point in putting the company name on the upper panel if it was routinely covered up with a sheet. Maybe the upper board was used during an earlier variant of the livery. Like the LNWR: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/T58HW3/a-load-of-manchester-goods-on-a-horse-and-cart-camden-station-T58HW3.jpg https://miro.medium.com/max/1017/1*rGPmYU60gaFIUNw9cFq_Rg.jpeg 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 22 hours ago, Mikkel said: Doesn't look like it. These pictures are dated Nine Elms, October 18, 1918. The first one has lettering similar to the "cricket" photo above, the other three appear to have a different style. Edit: Actually, I think the lettering is just not clear/worn on the others. Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/parcels-piled-high-in-a-south-western-railways-horse-drawn-news-photo/3138617?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/driver-is-perched-high-up-above-his-horses-on-a-cart-piled-news-photo/3139898?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/crates-and-boxes-piled-up-on-a-wagon-which-has-loaded-up-at-news-photo/3138766?adppopup=true Getty Images, embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/crates-and-barrels-tied-on-to-a-cart-at-nine-elms-goods-news-photo/3138774?adppopup=true I assume that the 2nd picture with the huge pile of baskets is simply posed for the camera. The load doesn't even seem to be secured. There's always a caveat with photographs - always ask why was it taken, because it's probably showing something 'special' rather than humdrum everyday operations. 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 5 hours ago, Mikkel said: Maybe the upper board was used during an earlier variant of the livery. Like the LNWR: Midland was similar to that LNWR example - sorry, haven't found a postable photo yet. Going back to the question of the LSWR's name, C. Hamilton Ellis' 1956 book was titled The South Western Railway. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 4, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 4, 2019 11 hours ago, MikeOxon said: I assume that the 2nd picture with the huge pile of baskets is simply posed for the camera. The load doesn't even seem to be secured. There's always a caveat with photographs - always ask why was it taken, because it's probably showing something 'special' rather than humdrum everyday operations. Yes, maybe it is one of those "how not to do it" photos. They can be deceptive. I thought this was a stunning photo... Getty Images. Embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/worker-demonstrating-the-dangers-of-riding-on-a-wagon-this-news-photo/90773250?adppopup=true ...until I saw the next one: Getty Images. Embedding permitted. https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/worker-simulating-an-accident-at-the-great-western-railways-news-photo/90773248?adppopup=true Note the chalk markings by the way. 7 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 True, but it does give us the running no, axle box, brake and other details for a GW 4 plank wagon (but not an O5 as it’s not DC1 brakes) drduncan 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 54295 (of lot 8) was in the very large group of lever-brake 4-plankers without an initial diagram (but probably came under O21 later). The second pic shows the triangular solebar gusset underneath the middle of the door. Edited December 4, 2019 by Miss Prism 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 4, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 4, 2019 52 minutes ago, drduncan said: True, but it does give us the running no, axle box, brake and other details for a GW 4 plank wagon (but not an O5 as it’s not DC1 brakes) drduncan Yes, and also tells us that since it was found necessary to make this warning, some shunters were actually doing this in practice! I've just put it on my "things to be modelled" list 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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