Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Compound2632]

Not quite as bad as the old Irish story (West Clare possibly) about the passenger who complained to the stationmaster that he'd missed the train because it had left on time: "No, to be sure, he hadn't. That was yesterday's train that had just gone; today's train would be along tomorrow."

[Regularity]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Not quite as bad as the old Irish story (West Clare possibly) about the passenger who complained to the stationmaster that he'd missed the train because it had left on time: "No, to be sure, he hadn't. That was yesterday's train that had just gone; today's train would be along tomorrow."

Recounted (or created?) in Spike Milligan’s first novel, “Puckoon”.

[Mikkel]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

What is especially interesting there is the depot name on the cover or tilt sheet - I don't believe I've seen this before; or for that matter, a picture of a cart of this type with the cover in place.

 

I'm also finding a lot of variation in the GWR's lettering on the tilts (not to mention on the bodies). There was clearly a lot more variation in the lettering used on horsedrawn carriages than on the rails.

 

Other than the lettering, some of these photos of Lawley Street seem to show the same kind of tilt on vehicles in the background: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lawleystreet.htm

 

While on the subject of Midland horsedrawn vehicles, you really must model this scene one day: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy129b.htm  (although I'm not even sure he is a Midland driver, or did they wear bowlers when doing their rounds!).

 

[drduncan]

It’s looks more of a Billycock than a Bowler...

DrD

 

[PhilJ W]

33 minutes ago, drduncan said:

It’s looks more of a Billycock than a Bowler...

DrD

 

Same thing, billycock is American for a bowler.

[drduncan]

Actually it’s from Norfolk UK not VA.

 

The Americans use ‘Derby’

 

Given the billycock’s agricultural and top hat roots it often seems (at least to my eye) to have a higher crown than the bowler.

Edited December 23, 2019 by drduncan

[wagonman]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Not quite as bad as the old Irish story (West Clare possibly) about the passenger who complained to the stationmaster that he'd missed the train because it had left on time: "No, to be sure, he hadn't. That was yesterday's train that had just gone; today's train would be along tomorrow."

 

 

Or you could try Percy French's take on the West Clare...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_Ye_Right_There_Michael

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Other than the lettering, some of these photos of Lawley Street seem to show the same kind of tilt on vehicles in the background: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lawleystreet.htm

 

 

Those Lawley St and Central Goods photos provide a wealth of cartage info.

 

This, at Central Goods, c. 1892, is one of my favourites: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy924a.htm

 

While the one with the bowler-hatted driver: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy129b.htm shows what seems to be a common style of tilt cover lettering - large serif M R Co. - common, at least, in the Birmingham area, which is what matters as far as I'm concerned!

[Northroader]

Do you mind, nothings common in Birmingham.

[Compound2632]

@Northroader, I'll have you know, I come from Sutton Coldfield, where sex is what coal is delivered in.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This, at Central Goods, c. 1892, is one of my favourites: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy924a.htm

 

If you arranged an unloading scene like that on a layout, with the horsedrawn vehicle in an L,  someone would tell you off! 

[wagonman]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Northroader, I'll have you know, I come from Sutton Coldfield, where sex is what coal is delivered in.

 

That's the way they say it in Morningside (Edinburgh) too... Ever so refeeened.

[Mikkel]

Back to working on the new layout. Earlier I experimented with different ways of doing setts and flagstones. Each technique had pros and cons, so I decided to use all of them .

 

Below is a paved section of setts,  stamped with old brush heads in Forex, a.k.a. ’foamed PVC’ but happily now without the PVC. As mentioned before the technique also works in DAS clay, but I work in our living room so this kind of material is convenient.

 

 

 

 

The aim is to produce a  fairly uniform look in a reasonably short time. So the result is less sophisticated than scribing. Although setts can be individualised by going back over them again with a scribing tool. Which is also good for repairing mistakes!

 

 

 

 

I've done three of these so far, a bit over an hour for each. I won’t deny that for straight sections like this, a similar result could probably have been had with the Wills ready made setts.

 

 

 

 

  Pavement was done using the same Forex material, but scribed. I lined out the kerbs and flagstones first.

 

 

 

For the entry to the goods depot, I used the Green Scene roller on blue foam as previously described. I find the surface of blue foam extremely sensitive, and the roller has its limitations – so I’ll only use it for smaller areas at this point.

 

 

 

The arched setts are a nod to the beautifully paved goods yard at Birmingham Moor Street. A bit over the top for Farthing maybe, but so far it’s only intended for the yard entrance - and the GWR always paid attention to outward appearances .

 

 

 

I am now trying to work out how best to do macadam paving in the public road outside the goods depot, following the discussion in this thread:

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Mikkel

[bgman]

Some very nice work there young Sir, Forex or similar isn't something that I have ever used so far but your results do tempt me.

 

I have also contemplated using one of those rollers too but I think you have to be fairly precise at getting it all to line up, which you appear to have been successful in doing.

 

Keep up the excellent work and I certainly will look forward to the next instalment.

 

G

[ChrisN]

I am fairly certain we discussed Macadam on my thread, but who knows where and when, and I am not sure that we came to an answer, unless it was chinchilla dust.  I know that the pictures of Barmouth showed white roads so that is the colour I will have to get to.

 

You may know the Francis Firth site or the Old Photos UK, which I have linked to Wiltshire towns.  (I cannot remember where Farthing is near.)  These look to be not white, so chose your colour.  Here, if it works is a towpath, so may give some indication of the stone colour.  Sort of stone colour ish, but not chalk or the bright red of Devon.

[Mikkel]

10 hours ago, bgman said:

Some very nice work there young Sir, Forex or similar isn't something that I have ever used so far but your results do tempt me.

 

I have also contemplated using one of those rollers too but I think you have to be fairly precise at getting it all to line up, which you appear to have been successful in doing.

 

Keep up the excellent work and I certainly will look forward to the next instalment.

 

G

 

Thanks Grahame. I think the Forex is particularly good for scribing. It is more rigid yet also takes impressions better than foamboard. One limitation I have found is that it is a bit tricky to cut and file curves in it.

 

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I am fairly certain we discussed Macadam on my thread, but who knows where and when, and I am not sure that we came to an answer, unless it was chinchilla dust.  I know that the pictures of Barmouth showed white roads so that is the colour I will have to get to.

 

You may know the Francis Firth site or the Old Photos UK, which I have linked to Wiltshire towns.  (I cannot remember where Farthing is near.)  These look to be not white, so chose your colour.  Here, if it works is a towpath, so may give some indication of the stone colour.  Sort of stone colour ish, but not chalk or the bright red of Devon.

 

Many thanks for those tips Chris, especially the Francis Firth site which I didn't know. Farthing is indeed somewhere in or not too far from Wiltshire.

 

I do find the Getty images site very useful also, but it requires tweaking to show good results. The trick is to click 'Editorial' and then 'Sort by Oldest' in the Filters. Here for example is a search: 

 

https://www.gettyimages.dk/photos/street-scene-england-1900s?page=3&phrase=street scene england 1900s&sort=oldest#license

 

I tried to Google macadam on your thread but couldn't find anything just now. But I've been wanting to try out Chincilla dust so this is a good occasion. I foresee a Pythonesque visit to the local pet shop 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Mikkel

[Northroader]

Funny thing, I walked up into town yesterday to do some shopping, and I was taking in the appearance of the road and pavement. Nothing special, both were well worn tarmac, the road a Bclass with a fair amount of traffic, dry after all the rain we’ve previously had, but it struck me how pale they were. Not exactly white, more very light grey, and I was drawing parallels with the Lowry paintings. He drew roads with a white chalky finish, the better to pick out the hurrying figures on them, but it struck me that he wasn’t really that far out, only a tone or so too white.

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I foresee a Pythonesque visit to the local pet shop 

 

http://

[Donw]

6 hours ago, Northroader said:

Funny thing, I walked up into town yesterday to do some shopping, and I was taking in the appearance of the road and pavement. Nothing special, both were well worn tarmac, the road a Bclass with a fair amount of traffic, dry after all the rain we’ve previously had, but it struck me how pale they were. Not exactly white, more very light grey, and I was drawing parallels with the Lowry paintings. He drew roads with a white chalky finish, the better to pick out the hurrying figures on them, but it struck me that he wasn’t really that far out, only a tone or so too white.

 

I am fairly sure that what you see is not so much the colour of freshly laid tarmac, it is the colour of the dust that has stuck to the surface. The surface isn't flat. but textured and dirt and dust gets caught in the surface. A downpour will darken the appearance condsiderably and as it dries it will lighten again.

 

Don

 

[2996 Victor]

The colour of a bound macadam or hot-rolled asphalt pavement (the bit you walk on is a footway, the bit you drive on is a pavement!) is determined by the aggregate used. The aggregate is bitumen-bound (tar is highly toxic and fell out of favour long ago) and the near-black colour of newly laid pavements is the colour of the bitumen, which naturally wears off with trafficking leaving the aggregate exposed. The choice of aggregate in a bound macadam or HRA is dependent upon the required skid resistance of the surface.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

(30 years a highway engineer )

 

Incidentally, a hot-rolled asphalt is simply a bound dense bitumenous macadam with coated chips, usually minimum 14mm aggregate, rolled into its surface.

Edited January 8, 2020 by 2996 Victor

[Mikkel]

 

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Incidentally, a hot-rolled asphalt is simply a bound dense bitumenous macadam with coated chips, usually minimum 14mm aggregate, rolled into its surface.

 

I found this photo illustrative, though not from Britain I think:  https://www.alamy.com/bitumen-on-macadam-1951-image243051369.html

 

Would the lower layer of macadam in that photo be representative of the early/original Macadam as invented by McAdam, before tar etc was added? Wikipedia refers to 2cm stone for the top layer. Dust, dung and life in general would then cover it further I assume.

 

 Edit:  Found this illustration of different early styles:

 

 

...from this interesting page: https://interestingengineering.com/john-loudon-mcadam-the-father-of-the-modern-road

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Mikkel

[Charlie586]

21 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Back to working on the new layout. Earlier I experimented with different ways of doing setts and flagstones. Each technique had pros and cons, so I decided to use all of them .

 

Below is a paved section of setts,  stamped with old brush heads in Forex, a.k.a. ’foamed PVC’ but happily now without the PVC. As mentioned before the technique also works in DAS clay, but I work in our living room so this kind of material is convenient.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice modelling of the setts. Is the manhole cover a casting or etched item?

[Mikkel]

Charlie, it's from this nice etch. £2.40 when I bought it (no connection): 

 

 

 

[Charlie586]

10 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Charlie, it's from this nice etch. £2.40 when I bought it (no connection): 

 

 

 

 

That is a nice etch, shame I don't need any myself.

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

I found this photo illustrative, though not from Britain I think:  https://www.alamy.com/bitumen-on-macadam-1951-image243051369.html

 

Would the lower layer of macadam in that photo be representative of the early/original Macadam as invented by McAdam, before tar etc was added? Wikipedia refers to 2cm stone for the top layer. Dust, dung and life in general would then cover it further I assume.

 

 Edit:  Found this illustration of different early styles:

 

 

...from this interesting page: https://interestingengineering.com/john-loudon-mcadam-the-father-of-the-modern-road

 

 

The macadam, as devised by John McAdam, relies on the interlocking of the stones in each layer to provide structural strength within the pavement's construction. A quick look a Wiki doesn't seem to mention how the stone should be graded - the graduated sizes of stone aid the "locking" as each smaller size fits in the gaps between the larger ones. The addition of tar and subsequently bitumen to the mix as a binder acts as stabiliser and keeps the structure intact (assuming no ingress of water and freeze-thaw!).

 

Its quite likely that the lower layer shown in the photograph is the original unbound macadam. Most minor roads in England consist either of an unbound macadam as per the photograph which has been overlaid by bitumenous materials, or they are simply layers of tar/bitumen and chipping accumulated over time.

 

In modern pavement construction there is an un-bound layer of coarse stone (sub-base) beneath the bound layers. There would also be a thick capping layer beneath the sub-base where ground is soft. Above the sub-base are three bound layers, the base, the base-course, and the surface course, all diminishing in thickness and aggregate size as they approach the surface.

 

For anyone who's interested in modern pavement design in the UK, I can do no better than recommend the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges