Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Siberian Snooper]

Only gears on the 9f I moved were on the screw reverser, which was in mid-gear and was still owned by David Shepherd at the time.

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Siberian Snooper

[kitpw]

Mikkel: I've enjoyed reading and watching the goings on at Farthing through the year - I'm pleased to see that the lamplighter is clearly happy with his perch - from January's internet archaeology to December's two and three plank wagons (all in red, sole bars included - maybe red lead, but that's a conversation for another day, I don't want to start any hares running this side of 2021). A Merry Christmas to you and best wishes for next year.

 

Kit PW

 

A 1920s, GWR 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, kitpw said:

 (all in red, sole bars included - maybe red lead, but that's a conversation for another day, I don't want to start any hares running this side of 2021).

 

No hare there that hasn't already run its course! I'm with you on red lead.

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much for the christmas greetings  

 

On the subject of red lead and liveries in general:  In GWRJ no. 43, 2002, John Lewis begins a series on GWR Stores Vans. This includes a brief introduction to the centralized Stores Dept. at Swindon, and features a little gem which I feel has been overlooked a bit.

 

The item is an extract from the "List of stores", a book in which the supplies available at the Stores Dept. are listed, dated July 1922 (and stamped April 1932).   John includes a sample page from the book, and his choice is clearly no coincidence: It is a list of paint.

The list is titled "Paint Mixed, Red lead, &C". It features both dry and ready mixed red lead, and white lead.  The list of "Paint Mixed, ready for use" also includes  "Stone Color, white lead base", from which can be selected "Standard Tints" no. 1, 2 and 3 respectively. John mentions in passing that this is the origin of the expressions "Stone No.1" etc.  Various other colours are also listed, including "Bright red for stop blocks", "Steel grey" etc.

 

The list is no doubt well-known by some, but I was intrigued by how it brings a tangible element to our sometimes speculative discussions, e.g. was there really such as thing as Stone no. 2 (yes), was paint really available ready mixed (yes), etc. 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mikkel

[Donw]

No so different from the colour mixing done in your local builders merchant then .

 

Wishing you a merry Christmas and all the best for the coming year.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

Thanks Don.  The impression I get is that the paint was stored ready-mixed at the Stores Dept., so may have been mixed beforehand somewhere else. But I don't know.

 

It's so tempting to post the list, but had better not.

[Donw]

Talking to an old painter he mentioned Boxing up paint. This was when painting a large area and paint colour was less reliable they would get enough paint for the whole area and mix it together in a large container to ensure it was all one colour. 

If you were adding tints to a base colour that would be how you ensure you got the mix even for say a whole signal box.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

We have been working on panniers:

 

Source: Getty Images. Embedding permitted. Caption: Sparks Fly As Rail Workers Using Oxy-acetylene Torches Start Cutting And Breaking Down Older Great Western Railway GWR 1076 Class Steam Locomotives At The Locomotive Graveyard Of The Swindon Railway Works On 14 May 1935 

 

There has been progress on the “nostalgia” project to backdate a Hornby 2721 body, using a Bachmann 57xx chassis.  The original aim was an early 2721 PT, but I have decided to go for a 1854 PT instead. These were Southern division locos and thus more appropriate for Farthing, and technically the model matches an 1854 PT better (e.g. the fairly tall Hornby cab and the plain Bachmann conrods).

 

I'm aiming for ca. 1914-19, a period I have a growing interest in. Unfortunately the earliest 1854 PT photos I have found so far are from the early 1920s. Here’s how I left it earlier this year:

 

 

 

The Hornby balance pipe is a blob one each side of the motor block, so I made some new blobs .

 

 

 

New firebox sides and rear tank supports (adapted to allow room for the injectors) were also made. Swindon diagrams of the first 1854 and 2721 PTs show the balance pipe fitted behind the front splasher, but even if this was actually done in practice, photos suggest that they were soon relocated to a position near the center of the tanks - so that’s what I have done.

 

 

 

Now for a query: Removal of the “skirts” on the Hornby body exposes the Bachmann motor and lets too much light in. Below I have curved some 10 thou plastikard and trial fitted it to the motor to represent the rear portion of the boiler. But I haven’t run it yet as I’m wondering about (i) overheating, and (ii) shorting (does styrene isolate in practice, and what effect will the glue have?). Any thoughts?

 

 

 

I have also worked on the tank fittings. The Hornby tank top isn’t that bad, but the chimney (odd shape), tank fillers (too small) and grab rails (moulded lump) had to go. I'm wondering what the small pipes/cables running along the top are for, and when they were fitted.

 

 

 

The chimney was sawn off, and the tank fillers removed (vertical slices in both directions, followed by a parallel cut along the bottom). The bluetack is for protecting details.

 

 

 

Dry fit of the Finney chimney and tank fillers. The safety valve cover is so far an RTR item, can’t seem to find the appropriate shape in brass. The lower part of the Hornby cabside is too narrow. I’m working on that and the bunker.

 

 

 

Regarding rivets: I understand that up to ca. 1917 they were flush-riveted, then snap head riveted until ca. 1924, then welded seams. So for ca. 1914-1919 I’m thinking flush riveted. Looking at photos, am I correct that this means removing only what is marked below – or should the tanks be completely flush? I do dislike working without a specific photo.

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Mikkel

[MrWolf]

Wonderful piece of surgery @Mikkel, I am resisting the urge to dig out my books and see what elderly panniers survived into the 30's west of Birmingham and around the Welsh borders.

Especially since I have several battered 2721 panniers sitting on the dump sidings at Aston....

[46444]

18 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

We have been working on panniers:

 

Source: Getty Images. Embedding permitted. Caption: Sparks Fly As Rail Workers Using Oxy-acetylene Torches Start Cutting And Breaking Down Older Great Western Railway GWR 1076 Class Steam Locomotives At The Locomotive Graveyard Of The Swindon Railway Works On 14 May 1935 

 

There has been progress on the “nostalgia” project to backdate a Hornby 2721 body, using a Bachmann 57xx chassis.  The original aim was an early 2721 PT, but I have decided to go for a 1854 PT instead. These were Southern division locos and thus more appropriate for Farthing, and technically the model matches an 1854 PT better (e.g. the fairly tall Hornby cab and the plain Bachmann conrods).

 

I'm aiming for ca. 1914-19, a period I have a growing interest in. Unfortunately the earliest 1854 PT photos I have found so far are from the early 1920s. Here’s how I left it earlier this year:

 

 

 

The Hornby balance pipe is a blob one each side of the motor block, so I made some new blobs .

 

 

 

New firebox sides and rear tank supports (adapted to allow room for the injectors) were also made. Swindon diagrams of the first 1854 and 2721 PTs show the balance pipe fitted behind the front splasher, but even if this was actually done in practice, photos suggest that they were soon relocated to a position near the center of the tanks - so that’s what I have done.

 

 

 

Now for a query: Removal of the “skirts” on the Hornby body exposes the Bachmann motor and lets too much light in. Below I have curved some 10 thou plastikard and trial fitted it to the motor to represent the rear portion of the boiler. But I haven’t run it yet as I’m wondering about (i) overheating, and (ii) shorting (does styrene isolate in practice, and what effect will the glue have?). Any thoughts?

 

 

 

I have also worked on the tank fittings. The Hornby tank top isn’t that bad, but the chimney (odd shape), tank fillers (too small) and grab rails (moulded lump) had to go. I'm wondering what the small pipes/cables running along the top are for, and when they were fitted.

 

 

 

The chimney was sawn off, and the tank fillers removed (vertical slices in both directions, followed by a parallel cut along the bottom). The bluetack is for protecting details.

 

 

 

Dry fit of the Finney chimney and tank fillers. The safety valve cover is so far an RTR item, can’t seem to find the appropriate shape in brass. The lower part of the Hornby cabside is too narrow. I’m working on that and the bunker.

 

 

 

Regarding rivets: I understand that up to ca. 1917 they were flush-riveted, then snap head riveted until ca. 1924, then welded seams. So for ca. 1914-1919 I’m thinking flush riveted. Looking at photos, am I correct that this means removing only what is marked below – or should the tanks be completely flush? I do dislike working without a specific photo.

 

 

Wonderful modelling Mikkel as ever. It's good to see an old favourite reworked to this standard. 

 

I wonder if we will ever see a new RTR version of this class in the future? 

 

Look forwards to further updates.

 

Cheers, 

 

Mark 

[Guy Rixon]

Polystyrene is a good insulator for low voltages (it insulates high voltages too, but is too mechanically fragile to be reliable). Whether it's safe thermally around a motor is unclear. It actually melts at ~ 240 Celsius (according to Wikipedia), but as we modellers know, it softens below 100 Celsius. I would worry about the motor-cladding pieces warping and flowing out of shape over months and years. If it were easy to replace damaged boiler-pieces, as it seems to be here, then I think i would go ahead and fix them as and when they did distort. However, if they were hard to replace then I would change them to metal from the start.

[bgman]

YEY !

 

Some very delicate work being done to convert this one and preserve the details.

 

One thought I've had about the skirts that you raised which also went through my mind too about overheating. Is it possible to use some thin brass or NS to do this and isolate it from the motor casing ? 

I would be tempted to do that and then be certain of no distortion after all the work you've done so far, using an epoxy glue would effectively isolate it by giving the skirts an initial thin coat, let it dry then apply another to fix them, just an off the cuff idea.

 

G 

 

Guy beat me to it ! 

Edited December 26, 2020 by bgman

[MrWolf]

Good point. Styrene tends to go brittle with time and heat. It may be worth salvaging some of that black heatproof cardboard type material from some dead mains powered device such as a drill or vacuum cleaner.

[MikeOxon]

Polystyrene is a good insulator and I doubt whether you would encounter thermal problems on your small layouts.  For high temperature use, I would suggest using Kapton polyimide tape or film, which is widely available and withstands temperatures up to 400C.  It's used as the base for flexible printed circuits and copper tracks can be soldered without damage.

 

I remember when that Hornby 2021 pannier was seen as a 'great leap forward', after their previous pannier designs.  It has always fascinated me how we like to tweak details to be as accurate as possible, while accepting that it's all purely cosmetic and there's an electric motor inside!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, bgman said:

One thought I've had about the skirts that you raised which also went through my mind too 

 

With the English language, context is vital to comprehension.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Compound2632

[Simond]

My feeling is that the styrene will be fine, but my fear would be that it will need replacement in a few years’ time, which you may not want to do.  A thin layer of epoxy as suggested, will do the trick, if you want to go for a forever solution, a layer of thin cotton or, frankly, tissue paper embedded in the epoxy will toughen it up very thoroughly.

 

it’s a dramatic and impressive rebuild!

 

atb

Simon

 

 

 

 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Mikkel your RTR total  rebuilds conversion projects are completely inspiring and always a treat.

From my very basic knowledge and fumbling through books you are correct regarding the rivet detail although it appears that all rivets to the panniers will need removing to flush for the earliest of these locos.

Images from Russell's Pictorial Record of Great Western locomotives Vol1 pp 95 and 100. 

I agree with Simon although brass is a tougher option. 

It appears some of the class continued service into the 30s and 40s! Also the livery options differ immensely through the years.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Bluemonkey presents....
Livery note

[MrWolf]

Dammit. I was trying to resist the temptation to idly leaf through the same book....

 

This is a double whammy on account of my thoughts on backdating a damaged BR liveried 14xx to become one of the reboilered 517 class, then there's a 14xx in postwar livery which needs to be painted, numbered and detailed to mid 30s condition.....

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much everyone for comments, suggestions and buttons 

 

The suggestions for alternatives to the styrene "motor cladding" are very useful. I will see what I can dig up from the current stores. For RTR chassis mods I prefer simple solutions so that they can be easily replicated should a replacement chassis be needed at some point.

 

1 hour ago, Bluemonkey presents.... said:

it appears that all rivets to the panniers will need removing to flush for the earliest of these locos.

 

Thanks Matt for the photos. If you look at No. 1860 (second of your photos) the "seams" between the tank sections are visible, and the Hornby body actually shows these, but I was wondering whether they would be visible on earlier variants of the class.  Lee Marsh's build of the Finney kit does not show them, but even with that distinguished parentage you never know. 

 

The early panniers do not seem to have been widely photographed. I have a small selection of 1910-1919 photos of 1813s, Buffalos, a 655 and an 850 with Pannier Tanks, but no 1854 or 2721 PTs from that period so far (lots for later days).  As Martin Finney  puts it in his kit instructions for these classes: "Much information was unavailable and has had to be deduced from drawings of other similar classes and from photographs".

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, 46444 said:

I wonder if we will ever see a new RTR version of this class in the future?

 

Oh yes, as soon as I finish this one 

[Trog]

On 31/08/2020 at 21:08, Collett said:

And what is a "pipe nail"?

 

 

A fat nail with a domed head with a rim round it, designed for attaching cast iron guttering down pipes to walls. They were also used by surveyors as reference points, as the top of the dome made a nice easy and accurate place to measure from or if banged into the floor to place a survey staff onto.

[Miss Prism]

I had to pick myself off the floor on reading Mikkel was going all modern and doing a pannier!

 

 

Also https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1754.htm

 

These are very early (1911) pannier pics, and the seams are barely discernible. In 4mm scale, I would say they are as near as dammit invisible.

 

See also Ian Rathbone's painting of 950 in his 7mm scale gallery.

 

[bgman]

12 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I had to pick myself off the floor on reading Mikkel was going all modern and doing a pannier!

 

Life moves on Miss P !

 

Yours,

 

Ed Wardian

[Brassey]

Early panniers were flush riveted but note distinctive rivets on the front.  Kidderminster shed circa 1914:

 

[Miss Prism]

Ooooo - an 850 pannier with a low chimney - never seen that before.