Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Dave John]

Very nice work. I must dig mine out and dust them all.

 

If you are at a show and there is a Langley stand keep an eye open for the bits box, they sell off all the bits individually. A few years back I came home with a bag of assorted wheels, horses and things. Its kept me entertained for hours building odd stuff.

 

 

 

Based on a photo from , er, somewhere. 

 

 

[Mikkel]

Very nice. In the background there, I see you're continuing to experiment with the Great Western's little-known c. 1906 locomotive white livery too...

 

Ha!    It would certainly be easier if that was the case. I'm impatient to get on with some loco building. Apart from the Dean Goods, there is an 1813 side tank project, and with the new Model Rail 16xx announcement I suddenly have a potential chassis for my 2021ST body kit.  But I had better stay disciplined and move on with the detailing of the current layout first. 

 

 

Very nice Mikkel, I likes Cider Waggons !

 

Once again I look forward to seeing this one progress.

 

G

 

Thanks Grahame. I'm wondering whether the local jam factory at Farthing should be converted into a cider works. I wonder what the traffic would be. Apples in (as per the above photos), and cider out I suppose. Was there a trade in the leftovers maybe? I like baskets.

 

 

Very nice work. I must dig mine out and dust them all.

 

If you are at a show and there is a Langley stand keep an eye open for the bits box, they sell off all the bits individually. A few years back I came home with a bag of assorted wheels, horses and things. Its kept me entertained for hours building odd stuff.

 

 

long cart.jpg

 

Based on a photo from , er, somewhere. 

 

That looks excellent Dave, a very attractive vehicle. I'm sure I've seen that photo of somewhere, somewhere 

 

Thanks for the tip on the Langley bits. I have a few spare wheel sets, but obtaining them for scratchbuilding can be a bit difficult. It would be an obvious thing for 3D printing I suppose, maybe worth checking what's available at Shapeways.

[LBRJ]

 

 

Thanks Grahame. I'm wondering whether the local jam factory at Farthing should be converted into a cider works. I wonder what the traffic would be. Apples in (as per the above photos), and cider out I suppose. Was there a trade in the leftovers maybe? I like baskets.

 

 

 

 

The leftovers would be used to feed to the local porcine population I believe. So yes to the need to basket it up and send it away

[Welchester]

 BTW, your use of the term "drays" reminds me how confusing the terminology of horse-drawn vehicles seems to be. I also consider them drays, but the GWR drawings insist on calling these light types "trolleys" in most drawings. Heavier types are called "lorries". I wonder what exactly determined the dividing line between them.

 

My late father, who began his career as a goods clerk on the GWR in the 1930s, always referred to this type of vehicle as a 'railway dray', even if the horse was mechanical.

[Mikkel]

The leftovers would be used to feed to the local porcine population I believe. So yes to the need to basket it up and send it away

 

Excellent. I suppose that would normally be by horse drawn wagon to the local market... but perhaps the director of the local cider factory is a proper businessman and has struck a good deal with some silly pig farmers over in Denmark - thus sending the leftovers via the GWR eastwards 

 

 

My late father, who began his career as a goods clerk on the GWR in the 1930s, always referred to this type of vehicle as a 'railway dray', even if the horse was mechanical.

 

Interesting, thanks for that. Strange that the GWR draughtsmen should insist on "trolley". For what it's worth, Wikipedia has the following to say:

 

• Dray: Particularly in Australia and New Zealand, an un-sprung cart. In Britain, even in the 18th century, the name came to be associated with brewers' deliveries so that the later vehicle that was more correctly called a trolley also came to be known as a brewer's dray. These are still seen at horse shows in Britain.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

.........................Only then did I properly discover the wonderful world of British agricultural wagons, and that many counties had their own design.............................

The Museum of English Rural Life is a short distance from my son's home in Reading and a favourite place for visits with my grand-son.  It's a very 'child-friendly' place

 

I was thinking of it when I saw your GWR delivery dray and the drawings you showed.  I suspect 'drawings' were another innovation that came with the railways.  I rather suspect that the local craftsmen who built all those farm wagons would look at you blankly, if you asked them about drawings.  The local designs were doubtless handed down from father to son over several generations. 

 

The use of wheels fixed to their axles was possibly also a 'railway' idea, since all these cart wheels rotate on the ends of substantial square timber 'axle trees'

[Mikkel]

Interesting thoughts, Mike. The railways as frontrunners in the creation of modern organisational order. Such things seem so natural today, but are really quite recent I suppose. As you know, even the GWR itself didn't introduce systematic diagram numbers for it's goods stock until surprisingly late.
 
Your grandson is lucky, those farm wagons are quite a heritage. This book looks good, judging by the cover (click icons for large images):  https://www.fulltable.com/vts/aoi/a/arnold/wagons/a.htm
 
There's a nice model of a Wiltshire farm wagon at Pendon it seems:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/44381054@N05/4733920730/in/photolist-8djzGW-8dghTp-8djyQw-8dghPR
 
Here is my excuse for using the Dart Castings kit at Farthing (note Gloucester works build sign).

Edited June 10, 2018 by Mikkel

[Ian Smith]

Mikkel,

Pendon certainly have models of both Oxfordshire and Berkshire waggons, they were made by Chris Pilton and the build documented in MRJ 16.  Whether the model shown in the photo is one of those I don't know, so may not be a Wiltshire waggon after all.

Ian

[JimC]

The leftovers would be used to feed to the local porcine population I believe. So yes to the need to basket it up and send it away

Yep, plenty of references to pigs being fed the apple pulp.

It would probably need to go out daily, because it wouldn't keep, so perhaps the baskets get chucked in an open in the pickup goods and are dropped off at stations along the line?

 

[later] I suppose a full brake on the morning milk train would be another possibility for distributing along the line...

Edited June 11, 2018 by JimC

[Anotheran]

This book looks good, judging by the cover (click icons for large images):  https://www.fulltable.com/vts/aoi/a/arnold/wagons/a.htm

Thanks for the pointer Mikkel... I looked on Amazon and there's four copies listed at £28, £51, £82 and £129 plus P&P! So I thought I'd take a look at eBay... and have ordered a "good" copy for £4.35 with free postage! I'll let you know if it's as good as it looks from the images that you linked.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[Penlan]

So I thought I'd take a look at eBay... and have ordered a "good" copy for £4.35 with free postage! I'll let you know if it's as good as it looks from the images that you linked.

There's still one on Ebay for (around) £21.

There was one at £16 earlier, but that's gone... RMWeb reader?    

I was fortunate to buy one many years ago.  Excellent book.

[Mikkel]

Mikkel,

Pendon certainly have models of both Oxfordshire and Berkshire waggons, they were made by Chris Pilton and the build documented in MRJ 16.  Whether the model shown in the photo is one of those I don't know, so may not be a Wiltshire waggon after all.

Ian

 

Thanks Ian, I'd like to see those builds so will have a look for MRJ 16. The wagon in the picture looks identical to the Duncan Models 7mm kit for a "Wiltshire wagon" - but that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct of course: http://www.duncanmodels.co.uk/picture_haywain_blue_spindle.htm

 

Yep, plenty of references to pigs being fed the apple pulp.

It would probably need to go out daily, because it wouldn't keep, so perhaps the baskets get chucked in an open in the pickup goods and are dropped off at stations along the line?

 

[later] I suppose a full brake on the morning milk train would be another possibility for distributing along the line...

 

I like the sound of that! Especially chucking the baskets on the pickup goods. I have always wanted to model this: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms758a.htm

 

 

Thanks for the pointer Mikkel... I looked on Amazon and there's four copies listed at £28, £51, £82 and £129 plus P&P! So I thought I'd take a look at eBay... and have ordered a "good" copy for £4.35 with free postage! I'll let you know if it's as good as it looks from the images that you linked.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Cheers Neil, 4.35 sounds like a bargain. 

 

 

There's still one on Ebay for (around) £21.

There was one at £16 earlier, but that's gone... RMWeb reader?    

I was fortunate to buy one many years ago.  Excellent book.

 

Just had a look, hoping that one had been misspelt with a single "g" and had been missed by others. No such luck!

[Mikkel]

I've been looking at horsepower for my vehicles. Below is a selection from the current stable at Farthing, all from the excellent Dart Castings range (no connection). 

 

 

 

As with scale trees, large horses can look a bit overpowering on a layout. The 1:87 draft horse is easier on the eye, I think, so I’ve bought a couple of these. Two identical poses looks silly, so I've modified one of them - having already broken its leg by accident.

 

 

 

 

 

 
A little more filing and some judicious painting should take care of the rest.

 

If I can avoid interruptions, that is: I keep getting death threats from the WSPA, and favourable offers from Don Corleone and Tesco.
 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Mikkel

[Donw]

I am no great expert on horses but I have always understood the Sufflok Punch to be a very heavy horse but not as tall as a Shire generally. Certainly I have seen some pretty big shires.

 

Don

[bgman]

PM sent

 

G

[Mikkel]

I am no great expert on horses but I have always understood the Sufflok Punch to be a very heavy horse but not as tall as a Shire generally. Certainly I have seen some pretty big shires.

 

Don

 

I did wonder about that. I was a bit surprised when I received the Suffolk Punch. It is a pretty hefty thing for a 4mm model. The size indications are from the Dart Castings website. Other websites isuch as this one  do speak of 17 hands for both the Punch and Shires. 

[DonB]

8 used copies of this book lised in  www.Bookfinder.com  at less than 10gbp. along with several 'new' for silly money. Most are ex library copies, and a couple are from Continental sources via Amazon.Fr and Amazon.Dr   

[JimC]

I suspect 'drawings' were another innovation that came with the railways.

Perhaps not *with* the railways - the National Maritime museum's ship plans collection dates back to the early 18thC https://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/museum-collections/ship-plans-collection and I'm fairly sure I've seen 18thC drawings of mill components. But I don't have the slightest doubt that you're quite correct to suggest that the average local wagon wright had no need or use for plans. I do know that even within living memory there were traditional boatbuilders who had a set of templates on the wall for the frames of their standard rowing boats, and if you ordered a 17 foot one they spaced the frames farther apart than if you ordered a 14ft one.

[Mikkel]

8 used copies of this book lised in  www.Bookfinder.com  at less than 10gbp. along with several 'new' for silly money. Most are ex library copies, and a couple are from Continental sources via Amazon.Fr and Amazon.Dr   

 

Thanks Don, silly money indeed. A bit sad actually that historical reference works like that should end up being so cheap. Still, we all go that way I suppose!

[Penlan]

Going back a few posts, 'Dray', these had smaller wheels, which according to James Arnold, "..made the draught of the wagon more difficult to handle", See page 14, first para of 'The Farm Waggons of England and Wales'.
'Draught' seems to be the front of the framework that the front axle is attached to.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Penlan

[Mikkel]

Thanks Penlan. Whereas a "lorry" seems originally to have been a lower vehicle.

 

In any case, yesterday at midnight I heard strange noises from the basement. As I went to investigate, I found this ghoulish scene on my workbench. I suppose it was bound to happen, given all the butchering that’s been going on lately!
 

 
 
 
Latest figure mods are a couple of carters (a.k.a "carmen") and a “van lad” for my horse drawn wagons. Here’s a Langley carter fitted with a much (!) better Andrew Stadden head.
 

 

 
 
 
And below another carter, this time a Dart Castings body, again fitted with a Stadden head. Incidentally, the Dart figure is another example of “The Weasel”. The latter is still locked in that loo.
 

 

 
 
 
Carmen had Van Lads to help them. In photos they sometimes wear uniform, sometimes not – depending on their seniority perhaps. There’s a nice description in “Great Western Horsepower” about the career progression from Van Lad to Carman. Here’ a Van Lad modified from an Andrew Stadden figure:
 

 

 

 
 
 
The seating arrangements and -position on GWR horse drawn vehicles is a whole story in itself. I’ll post something about that in the blog later. Meanwhile, a few final shots of the vehicles before I get the primer out:
 

 

 

[Stubby47]

Absolutely fantastic modelling.

[Compound2632]

Your first carman is moonlighting from his job as one of the Tsar's body doubles.

[Coal Tank]

This thread just gets more and more fascinating

John

[Marly51]

I am using some Langley figures for the first time in my Cake Box Challenge, and wondered about modifying the heads. Your customising has created some lovely character detail!