Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I don't think 'specifications' for colours existed, merely painted bits of wood or metal used by paintshop foremen for reference purposes. The correlation of what was applied to locos and what was on the reference swatch was probably a bit adhoc, although paintshop foremen would be experienced and sensitive to the matching process.

 

 

 

There are certainly Midland Railway specifications, at least for wagon grey, in terms of so many pounds of this, so many pounds of that ingredient.

[Mikkel]

30 minutes ago, Brassey said:

 

The swatches in question are not printed but I assume produced from actual paint (some have cracked overtime).  At the time this book first appeared in 1978, the last page, which featured these samples, was also available from HMRS as a separate item, which I also have filed away (somewhere).

 

This would be about the best reference we have from a reliable, properly researched source.

 

Hi Peter,  do you mean the swatches in your copy are actual paint samples? Hang on tight to that copy, sounds like it's a real treasure (the samples in my 1978 copy are printed).

[PhilJ W]

Don't forget that as late as the 1950's paint used for locomotives was not ready mixed in tins but came in the form of a 'cake' of pigment that had to be pounded to a powder and mixed with linseed oil. Quite often pigments varied and had to be mixed with other colours to get the right match and the proportions of oil to pigment could also affect the final colour.

[AlfaZagato]

Green is especially touchy.   Our eyes see more shades of green than any other color.   Green pigments of the era were known to age strangely, as well.    I also highly doubt there is anyone still alive who could attest to what a true shade would be with authority.

[Miss Prism]

From the early 1900s (and possibly before), the GWR sourced its paint for structures and signals, even including black, externally from Williamsons Ltd and The Torbay Paint Co, the latter marketing their paints under the 'Ripolin' brand. The structure painting specs thus referred to e.g. 'Torbay red'. 'Ripolin black'.

 

Apart from goods grey (thought to be 7 parts black and one part white), no other ingredient recipes are known for GWR loco and rolling stock colours.

 

[bgman]

Apologies to one and all....

 

Maybe if Johnny had been in charge ?

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by bgman

[Donw]

Obviously things like buildings fences etc. would be painted in situ but surely locos would only be repainted at a major workshop a bit of touching up locally perhaps but not a whole paint job. I would expect the painting team would have a fair idea of the right colour. I could imagine that say Wolverhampton and Swindon might have a slight difference in there perception of the right shade but I assume each workshop would have a painted swatch to match against.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

I have seen so many discussions about paint and pigment and they all go along the same route as this one is taking, then someone will say, 'Ah, but you cannot use the real colour on a 4mm loco you need to lighten it or it will appear too dark.'

 

I work on the basis that I try and get it as right as I can and if someone who saw the trains running in that livery tells me it is wrong I will change it.

[Regularity]

48 minutes ago, bgman said:

Apologies to one and all....

 

Maybe if Johnny had been in charge ?

 

 

That third one is pretty poor modelling. Those trees are obviously dyed lichen, and the power lines are much too thick...

[amdaley]

People also need to remember that even though there was a set shade for a particular colour the mixing ratios of these shades were often in someone's head.

Yes there was a set mixture ratio but it differed from place to place. That's why there were variations in the shades.

When I started work in the painting trade over fifty years ago I learned how to mix shades from people many of whom were in their seventies.

They had nothing written down, it was all in their heads. They used their eyes to tell when a colour was right.

The strange thing is that they could produce the same shade over & over again with very little variation in the different batches.

Try & get someone to do that nowadays.

 

Tony.

Edited June 26, 2019 by amdaley

[Mikkel]

Further to Miss P's comment on bought in paints, Peter of Kirtley Models has the following comment on his station colours website:

 

Quote

However it should be noted that the GWR was using ready mixed paints in tins by at least 1907 which ensured consistancy of colours and was safer for the painters, and it is likely that other companies made the move to liquid paints a lot earlier than had previously been thought.

 

Question is whether that also applied to stock? 

 

If it did - and if the above quote is correct - then from 1907 we should expect greater consistency in loco green on newly painted locos, whereas prior to 1907 variation in shades would be more common as per Tony's comment about mixing on site.

[Brassey]

From Phoenix Precision website:

 

"It should be noted that all of our GWR colours were matched to a privately preserved set of paint panels from Swindon Works. These not only had the colours, but the dates used and the names for each colour. Our understanding is that the panels had been signed by the CME for the period."

 

[Mikkel]

Interesting! I searched 'swindon paint panels' and came upon the following quote from this forum (my emphasis)

 

Quote

Another point to remember when comparing colours, is that in the 'old days' all locomotives and rolling stock, was varnished, with varnish based on linseed oil - usually 3 coat minimum. This discoloured within the first few months exposed to the railway sulpherous environment.

 

When I matched the GWR colours for the original Precision Paints, I was loaned the livery panels from Swindon Works archive, which were kept out of the light. I had to do the same except when actually matching the colours. It was interesting to note the differences in shade was entirely due to the varnish coats, except for the oldest panel. Where the varnish had chipped off, the GWR Loco Green was, as near as could be seen in the small unvarnished patches, the same colour. On the backs of the panels were details of the varnish coats. I can't remember the details except for the fact that the number of coats got less and less over the years. The dates of the panels corresponded to the dates that Precision use for GWR loco colours. When I matched the panels I matched to the varnished coats which was what would have been seen. [...]

 

(edit)  One thing I forgot to mention: the newest GWR panel - 1945 - was not varnished, possibly because it was synthetic, and that was the true GWR Loco Green.

Bob 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

So where is the archive?

[Mikkel]

At STEAM I think? (scroll down) https://www.steam-museum.org.uk/info/1/steam/12/collections/2

 

Edit: Or maybe not, some of it seems to be at the National Archives.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Mikkel

[Denbridge]

10 hours ago, amdaley said:

People also need to remember that even though there was a set shade for a particular colour the mixing ratios of these shades were often in someone's head.

Yes there was a set mixture ratio but it differed from place to place. That's why there were variations in the shades.

When I started work in the painting trade over fifty years ago I learned how to mix shades from people many of whom were in their seventies.

They had nothing written down, it was all in their heads. They used their eyes to tell when a colour was right.

The strange thing is that they could produce the same shade over & over again with very little variation in the different batches.

Try & get someone to do that nowadays.

 

Tony.

It should also be considered that paints were far less durable in retaining their shades than modern paints. A loco that had been in traffic for a year or more, with perhaps just a revarnish would be a noticably different colour to one just out-shopped newly painted.

This is sometimes also  evident on preserved lines between locos of supposedly the same colour but painted a couple of years apart.

[amdaley]

15 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

It should also be considered that paints were far less durable in retaining their shades than modern paints. A loco that had been in traffic for a year or more, with perhaps just a revarnish would be a noticably different colour to one just out-shopped newly painted.

This is sometimes also  evident on preserved lines between locos of supposedly the same colour but painted a couple of years apart.

 

Absolutely. Back when they used cellulose paint on cars, trucks etc you would notice that red vehicles would turn a shade of pink after a few years.

 

The older varnishes made a huge difference to what a colour looked like.

Sometimes an item that received two coats of varnish looked very different to an item that had received only one coat even though the base colour underneath was the same.

Of course paints back in time were full of compounds that are unheard of in today's world.

That's why when we used blow lamps to burn off old paint you were warned to wear breathing gear if the paint being burned off was pre 1960's.

 

 

Tony.

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

At STEAM I think? (scroll down) https://www.steam-museum.org.uk/info/1/steam/12/collections/2

 

Edit: Or maybe not, some of it seems to be at the National Archives.

 

 

If so, then presumably, given what has been said above, the paint sample panels form part of one of the two named specialist collections.

[Devo63]

I have a card somewhere in my collection sent to my father by BR (WR) sometime around 1960 which has the final green, cream and brown paints used by Swindon at that time. Each colour sample is about 2" x 1.5" in size. It would be interesting to see how this compares to some of the modern paints modelers use. Not really helpful for early liveries but I'll see if I can dig it up. Also in the package were 3/8" scale drawings of the 56XX class and a Barry 0-6-2T which I think would look good on the wall of my railway room.

If you can pick one up in good condition Ernest Carter's livery book from 1952 has a fold out in the rear with real paint samples applied.

 

Dave R.   

[amdaley]

40 minutes ago, Devo63 said:

I have a card somewhere in my collection sent to my father by BR (WR) sometime around 1960 which has the final green, cream and brown paints used by Swindon at that time. Each colour sample is about 2" x 1.5" in size. It would be interesting to see how this compares to some of the modern paints modelers use. Not really helpful for early liveries but I'll see if I can dig it up. Also in the package were 3/8" scale drawings of the 56XX class and a Barry 0-6-2T which I think would look good on the wall of my railway room.

If you can pick one up in good condition Ernest Carter's livery book from 1952 has a fold out in the rear with real paint samples applied.

 

Dave R.   

 

Yes it has samples at the rear of the book.

I have a copy here myself but the samples are quite small.

The samples are numbered rather than named.

Edited June 27, 2019 by amdaley

[amdaley]

Here is some useful information taken from the above mentioned book by Carter.

It may be of benefit to some.

 

"1894. Wolverhampton abandoned the 1880 livery and fell into line with that used at Swindon. The old livery could however still be seen as late as 1900.

 

1894. For some time after this there were two locomotive greens in use, one described in sources as “Deep Holly” used at Wolverhampton and very similar to the previous Swindon green and the other described as “Middle Chrome green” used at Swindon. This latter shade was introduced  on the 7’ 8”  4-4-2 engine No 3031 “Achilles” and was eventually adopted as standard up to 1951."

 

Tony.

[Mikkel]

I promised to report back on my experiments with Belton RAL 6007 and 6009 sprays, to see if they might work for my early 1900s GWR locos.

 

I tested both colours on some old RTR parts. They are seen here with two coats of paint (four passes per coat) on a light grey primer, and with two coats of satin varnish. 

 

 

Above is Belton RAL 6007 on an Airfix tender next to my Buffalo tank, which has more or less the shade I’m after. The RAL 6007 is a little too light for my period, but for post 1928 loco green I think it would be a fair bet. 

 

 

 
This is RAL6009, it is a little darker but has more blue in it, and is still too light for what I’m after.

Without varnish the paint is high gloss and lighter still. The photos are natural light, I also examined the colour under artifical light. The images don’t show the shades exactly as my eyes see them, I chose the images that came closest.

 

In conclusion I need something darker, the search continues 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Mikkel

[Brassey]

Mikkel, have you considered an airbrush or would that be impractical? Peter

[Ian Smith]

Mikkel, your Buffalo looks to be painted in the old Precision Paints "early" green - I can't remember what the label said possibly "pre 1928" (however it is the same as my 1854 class).  When I came to painting my Metro and latterly my Buffalo I used a new tin of Precision Paints green, this time "GWR Loco Green 1881-1906" which is a completely different colour.  Unfortunately I don't have two comparable photos of the locos taken under the same conditions (although if required I could put both locos under both layout lighting and natural light and take new photos).

 

Both were spray painted with an airbrush, and both have received a coat of PP Satin Varnish (again airbrush delivered).  If I'm honest I almost prefer the "Pre 1928" green, although I understand that the new shades have been replicated from original colour swatches that have been protected from light so are probably the more accurate shades.

 

Ian

Photos of my 2 engines follow :

 

[Mikkel]

On 13/07/2019 at 11:08, Brassey said:

Mikkel, have you considered an airbrush or would that be impractical? Peter

 

I'm certainly considering it, but we live in a flat now and spray painting has to take place in a public courtyard 3 floors down, which is often one big playground. Heart-warming but not the best painting environment, so I was hoping for something that didn't require too much setting up, cleaning etc. 

 

I persisted with the Belton cans because they have reliable nozzles, which is critical. The Plasti-kote "Twist & Spray" range is even better, but their greens are of the sea-sick kind 

 

 

23 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

Mikkel, your Buffalo looks to be painted in the old Precision Paints "early" green - I can't remember what the label said possibly "pre 1928" (however it is the same as my 1854 class).  When I came to painting my Metro and latterly my Buffalo I used a new tin of Precision Paints green, this time "GWR Loco Green 1881-1906" which is a completely different colour.  Unfortunately I don't have two comparable photos of the locos taken under the same conditions (although if required I could put both locos under both layout lighting and natural light and take new photos).

 

Both were spray painted with an airbrush, and both have received a coat of PP Satin Varnish (again airbrush delivered).  If I'm honest I almost prefer the "Pre 1928" green, although I understand that the new shades have been replicated from original colour swatches that have been protected from light so are probably the more accurate shades.

 

Ian

Photos of my 2 engines follow :

 

Thank you Ian, very useful to see the Precision 1881-1906 green applied. It does look lighter than I would have thought - but as you say, lighting makes such a difference. Getting paint shipped outside the UK is increasingly difficult, another reason I'm looking for a "local" solution.

 

So far I have been brush-painting the locos that I have painted myself, by mixing up my own colours.  With practice and using the Vallejo acrylics (which flow very well) I am able to do it without brush marks. I can always resort to that solution so I'm not desperate - but even so it's hard to beat a properly sprayed look.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Mikkel