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Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench


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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... it would be very hard to reach a conclusion about the colour of a Dean Goods coming off Stafford Road shed at 6 o'clock on a foggy February morning in 1905, from the opposite side of the running lines.

No it wouldn't. I've seen lots of such photos and the colour is clear in them... If it's foggy then its monochrome and if it's smoggy then its sepia.

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On 16/07/2019 at 12:33, Miss Prism said:

 

Ummm, based on the old holly green, as Pentagram's blurb says.  It has a high blue content, and is perhaps more in alignment with the colour used initially by Wolverhampton (and adopted from the OW&WR).

 

There are several references which suggest that the holly green on early Broad Gauge locomotives did, indeed, have a high blue content.

 

1. The ' livery chart ' on page 111 of Christopher Awdry's book ' Brunel's Broad Gauge Railway ' describes the boiler cladding as "Holly Green (Dark  Blue/Green)" [this chart is credited to the Broad Gauge Society]

 

2. The drawings from the book 'GWR Locomotives 1857', many of which are available from Getty Images are coloured in a very 'blue' shade.

 

3. The BS4800 colour described as 'Holly Green' 14C39 has a distinctly blueish shade.

 

I suggest that early GWR engines, before the adoption of Chrome Green, were a much bluer shade than is commonly assumed  Remember that, in the early 19th century, the range oil pigments was much more limited than later in the century, when synthetic pigments became available.

 

Mike

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I was always under the (very uninformed) impression that Wolverhampton "green" was almost turquoise.    That it was only slightly more of a green that Improved Engine Green.

 

 

Sorry - Mikkel, how is the modelling going?

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My impression of Wolverhampton green is coloured by a magnificent 517 class loco which I think was built by Lee Marsh, and which was painted in that livery. It was before he started his current "batch" produced range, and there was a photo on the web which showed the Wolverhampton livery as he had interpreted it. It looked superb and yes certainly very blue as I remember it.  

 

The photo doesn't seen to be on the web any more, I wonder if anyone reading this knows of the fate of that model? There can't be many around in that livery!

 

5 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Sorry - Mikkel, how is the modelling going?

 

Not to worry, it is an interesting and relevant discussion. But since you ask, I am achieving great things on behalf of humanity at the moment. These DIY sanding sticks for example, beat that! (old Ian Rice tip I think, useful for getting into awkard places). 

 

 IMG_20190713_090729679_HDR.jpg.73133de01e8f45d9d40f1ebe709f5954.jpg

Edited by Mikkel
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6 hours ago, Mikkel said:

My impression of Wolverhampton green is coloured by a magnificent 517 class loco which I think was built by Lee Marsh, and which was painted in that livery. It was before he started his current "batch" produced range, and there was a photo on the web which showed the Wolverhampton livery as he had interpreted it. It looked superb and yes certainly very blue as I remember it.  

 

The photo doesn't seen to be on the web any more, I wonder if anyone reading this knows of the fate of that model? There can't be many around in that livery!

 

There are a couple of 517s on very different greens on the https://www.leemarshmodelco.com/pages/gallery website. I don't know if either of them are the one you're looking for but they certainly give options for colour!

 

Kind regards, Neil 

 

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Thanks Neil. An amazing assembly of locos - and colours!

 

I think the 517 in Wolverhampton green that I was thinking of is the one in the link I posted above, though. I'm wondering now if maybe it was built by Malcolm Mitchell. Perhaps @Edwardian can remember which site he got the photo from?

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Tony Reynolds built some 517s one of which was finished in Wolverhampton Green.  It would be nice to see a Model of the early 517s with a saddle tank and in Wolverhampton livery.

 

Don

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I agree Don, that would be quite something.

 

Not quite the same but I have always admired Tony Reynalds' scratchbuilt early 850, an photo of which is still stored on the Wayback Machine's capture of Lee Marsh' old site:  https://web.archive.org/web/20160331004531fw_/http://www.modelmaker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/reynalds/TR009.jpg

 

He also built this beauty: https://web.archive.org/web/20160331004530fw_/http://www.modelmaker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/reynalds/TR001.jpg

 

- which I assume is the same as this one:

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Thanks Neil. An amazing assembly of locos - and colours!

 

I think the 517 in Wolverhampton green that I was thinking of is the one in the link I posted above, though. I'm wondering now if maybe it was built by Malcolm Mitchell. Perhaps @Edwardian can remember which site he got the photo from?

 

Hmm, the picture in this post is not mine.  I do not recall the source of the picture, I'm afraid. The picture below was taken by me at STEAM, Swindon, in 2014.  Perhaps someone knows the builder/exhibitor?

 

1993952997_517ClassNo_832.JPG.d4cac4a499f72ae2c7234f88557da79d.JPG

 

 

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Ah, beautiful. Thanks James, great photo! Perhaps Russ will be interested in the photo for the gwr.org.uk livery pages. The colour is not unlike Mike's rendition of the painting in O.S. Nock's book here.

 

All these exotic liveries make me want to rebuild and repaint my No. 835. I see that particular loco has been depicted by other modellers in both Wolverhampton blue and Chocolate.  Need to check up on whether that is based on fact.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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That model is a real beauty, and the lining out is so exact, wish I could achieve that standard. Turning away from Wolverhampton Green for a minute, the comment I have is the drivers overalls. Levi Strauss was starting to produce Denim clothing in America by around 1900, which would be around the same time as this model at the latest. My view is that the use of either two piece overalls, jacket with bib and brace, or boiler suits, didn’t become widespread in Britain until some time later, probably after WW1. Early railway pictures show enginemen in white fustian clothing, and use of this had died out by late Victorian times. Around the time of that model, what? Corduroy is very likely, rough woollen cloths as well? I try not to paint pregroup footplate crew in the blues which we tend to associate with them wearing from later times, maybe coloured shirts, but otherwise dull greys, browns, and blacks.

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I found some interesting discussion about the consistency of GWR loco green including a reference to finding "holly green" on City of Truro during restoration here:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/gwr-light-and-dark-stone-paint.1099053/page-2

 

Paint archaeology.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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8 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I found some interesting discussion about the consistency of GWR loco green including a reference to finding "holly green" on City of Truro during restoration here:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/gwr-light-and-dark-stone-paint.1099053/page-2

 

Paint archaeology.

 

 

I note that the question "where are these mythical panels?" was not answered...

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58 minutes ago, Northroader said:

That model is a real beauty, and the lining out is so exact, wish I could achieve that standard. Turning away from Wolverhampton Green for a minute, the comment I have is the drivers overalls. Levi Strauss was starting to produce Denim clothing in America by around 1900, which would be around the same time as this model at the latest. My view is that the use of either two piece overalls, jacket with bib and brace, or boiler suits, didn’t become widespread in Britain until some time later, probably after WW1. Early railway pictures show enginemen in white fustian clothing, and use of this had died out by late Victorian times. Around the time of that model, what? Corduroy is very likely, rough woollen cloths as well? I try not to paint pregroup footplate crew in the blues which we tend to associate with them wearing from later times, maybe coloured shirts, but otherwise dull greys, browns, and blacks.

 

I have just finished reading a book on the Cambrian.  I was (pleasantly) surprised to see at least one driver in a white fustian jacket.   It was not wonderfully clean but not filthy.

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I note that the question "where are these mythical panels?" was not answered...

Pendon Museum once had a set of Swindon colour panels.  They were lent to a manufacturer who subsequently binned them. So they were certainly not mythical. This is mentioned in "in search of a dream" the biography of Roye England and Pendon.

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8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Hmm, the picture in this post is not mine.  I do not recall the source of the picture, I'm afraid. The picture below was taken by me at STEAM, Swindon, in 2014.  Perhaps someone knows the builder/exhibitor?

 

 

The colour of the engine in your photo looks fairly similar (somewhat bluer) to the colour I chose for my model of GWR No. 184, absorbed from the OW&WR.  The paint I used was Rustoleum 'Painters Touch' Dark Green.

Edited by MikeOxon
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22 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Perhaps Russ will be interested in the photo for the gwr.org.uk livery pages.

 

Can't edit my original response properly because of this crap software, but I got confused as to which picture Mikkel was referring to.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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Well now I have definitly seen 1157 in the flesh so to speak and also the 850. Tony built the 517s then the A4s before doing the 850s if I remember right. I think it was one of the 517s he said he had given to his wife to stop people trying to talk him into selling it. I remember discussing  the H spoked wheels with him but cannot recall what solution he adopted. 

 

I am a bit puzzled by MikeOxon's paint the his loco was in the Blue-Green early livery but the paint is quoted as Dark Green and the link from Chris shows it as a nice Dark green  or have I misunderstood?

 

Don

 

 

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5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I found some interesting discussion about the consistency of GWR loco green including a reference to finding "holly green" on City of Truro during restoration here:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/gwr-light-and-dark-stone-paint.1099053/page-2

 

Paint archaeology.

 

Does anyone know Andy Williams from the National Preservation forum? If he’s still got the paint chips perhaps we could get sight of them and measure the colours with a colorimeter.

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2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Mike,

Is it this?  If so it is just what I need.

Yes, that's the one - in a convenient small 'tester' pot.  I found it rather too glossy - 'wet look' - but that can be toned down.

 

EDIT - see further comment to DonW - following

Edited by MikeOxon
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