Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Ah. That would have helped understanding your post. No wonder I was flummoxed!

 

Sorry. I thought the discussion was about loco lining.

[Compound2632]

It was, but digression into carriage lining is informative. One problem with the latter in 4 mm/ft scale is that gold leaf doesn't scale.

[webbcompound]

Sorry if this is a bit late to the discussion, but my RM Web digest appears to be running very late. To get (relatively) finer lining than is available I have been using overlays of different colours of Fox lines. Only works for some combinations but here is a horribly enlarged bit. I started with orange, then overlayed with yellow, then overlayed with black on the blue loco. Just yellow overlayed with black on the indian red loco. (both 4mm scale)

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by webbcompound

[MikeOxon]

Another reminder that loco panels weren't always perfectly smooth-looking :

 

GWR 'Electra' at Swindon 1850

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by MikeOxon
add photo caption

[Denbridge]

On 06/11/2019 at 15:45, Denbridge said:

Sorry. I thought the discussion was about loco lining.

 

On 06/11/2019 at 16:09, Compound2632 said:

It was, but digression into carriage lining is informative. One problem with the latter in 4 mm/ft scale is that gold leaf doesn't scale.

A very good professional modeller I knew, sadly deceased lined the gold on coaches using Stroudley improved engine green to represent gold leaf. It looked fantastic. I've tried it and do think it's very convincing.

[Miss Prism]

On 05/11/2019 at 18:07, MikeOxon said:

The use of chrome orange for lining dates back to William Dean's period from 1881.  There were various changes to the way in which the lining was arranged and the lining diagram after 1906 (referred to by Miss Prism, above) was not the same as the arrangement before 1906.  My source of information is Great Western Way.

 

The first scheme, used from 1882 to 1906 comprised a black central line flanked by two 1/8" wide orange chrome lines, the overall width being 1-1/8". 

 

After 1906, however, this changed to a central black line (1" wide) flanked by two 1/2" wide green (body colour) lines, which were, in turn, flanked by two 1/8" orange chrome lines. The overall width of this later scheme was, therefore, considerably larger, at 2¼"

 

But I'm still confused, because the latter scheme on the GWW diagram is labelled '1906 - 1947' whereas in the text* is referred to as 'the 1900 variant', so I'm not sure what to put on the gwr.org's 1900-1906 loco livery page.

 

* at least in the 1st edition, don't know whether the confusion is cleared up in the 2nd edition.

 

The comparison is:

 

  

 

[MikeOxon]

21 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

But I'm still confused, because the latter scheme on the GWW diagram is labelled '1906 - 1947' whereas in the text* is referred to as 'the 1900 variant', so I'm not sure what to put on the gwr.org's 1900-1906 loco livery page.

 

I see what you mean.  It seems that a distinction was made between boiler bands and general lining on cab-sides etc. 

 

In the earlier period, from 1881, boiler bands were 1½" wide black plus 1/8" orange chrome each side (GWW 1st.ed. p.18) but the 1900 variant for boiler bands seems to have been the same as the 1906-1947 scheme.  It's not clear how widely this 'variant' was applied. 

 

Then, on p.28 GWW states "In 1907... the 1900-1906 variant of boiler band lining ... was adopted as standard.  Similar lining  ... was applied to cabs, tanks, and tenders."

 

I don't know whether all this is made any clearer in GWW 2nd edition - perhaps someone else can check.

[Mikkel]

Catching up with this, haven't had much internet access this week (may explain why I've slept so well!).

 

On 08/11/2019 at 01:53, webbcompound said:

To get (relatively) finer lining than is available I have been using overlays of different colours of Fox lines.

 

Thanks for illustrating that, I had been thinking something similar could be done to create thinner GWR lining. Since I am often piecing together the corners and straight lines anyway, it is tempting to take it that one step further next time.

 

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

 It seems that a distinction was made between boiler bands and general lining on cab-sides etc. 

 

In the earlier period, from 1881, boiler bands were 1½" wide black plus 1/8" orange chrome each side (GWW 1st.ed. p.18) but the 1900 variant for boiler bands seems to have been the same as the 1906-1947 scheme.  It's not clear how widely this 'variant' was applied. 

 

Then, on p.28 GWW states "In 1907... the 1900-1906 variant of boiler band lining ... was adopted as standard.  Similar lining  ... was applied to cabs, tanks, and tenders."

 

I don't know whether all this is made any clearer in GWW 2nd edition - perhaps someone else can check.

 

I'm away from my books and don't have the 2nd edition anyway, but this crop of a photo in my livery folder may be of interest. Stafford Rd shed circa 1900:

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

.............

I'm away from my books and don't have the 2nd edition anyway, but this crop of a photo in my livery folder may be of interest. Stafford Rd shed circa 1900:

 

This seems to confirm the distinction between boiler bands - 1½" wide black plus 1/8" orange chrome each side - and pre-1906 lining - black plus 1/8" orange chrome each side, overall width 1.1/8"

[Harlequin]

I have the second edition. On page 24 it introduces the subject by saying, "Linings: The period 1881-1906 was not simple" and it's not kidding!

 

I was going to try to pull out the relevant bits and summarise but it's a minefield.

 

However, Diagram 18 on page 47, produced at Swindon in January 1954 and titled "Method of Painting Great Western Railway Locomotives", tabulates the different combinations pretty well. Sadly I can't reproduce it here but I'd be willing to redraw it if that would be useful (and wouldn't break any copyrights).

 

Some relevant clips from page 24:

"The period 1881-1906 was not simple..."

"From 1881 orange lining on either side of black band" (1881 drawing, body lining: 1/8 O - 1 B - 1/8 O)

"Lining variations in 1894, 1897 and 1900"

All variations "to be found on the GWR until 1906"

 

The 1897 variation is especially fancy with double lining of both boiler bands and body plates. It was only applied to express locos and thus was contemporaneous with other variations.

 

And then there's the Wolverhampton factor. Page 32 says, "Blue-green shade lingered on until 1902", "from May 1895 [snip] Swindon livery" (which I take to mean Swindon lining style) and "interim changes seem to be to lining styles on some 517, 36xx amd 3521 classes"

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Harlequin
Correct date

[Compound2632]

@Mikkel very kindly sent me his collection of photographs of Dean Goods engines up to c. 1906. I've had a look through them just now. There are very few on which any lining at all can be made out but where it can be seen, on cab and tender sides, it looks to me to be a black line bordered with orange in all cases. The clearest photo is one of the latest, No. 2467 at Weymouth shed c. 1906. There are two prints of this, one darker than the other - the darker one appears in Locomotives Illustrated No. 157, p. 27.The tender has GREAT (crest) WESTERN. The rear splasher appear to be a different hue to the cab sidesheet, suggesting to me that this is the Indian red livery.

[Mikkel]

Time to change the public perception of railway modelling! 

 

Modellers are passionate...

 

 

...and cunning...

 

 

...and have great abs.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

I promise I won't do that again, it already gets on my nerves 

 

So here instead is a nice little kit from Arch Laser Models. There are a few issues to be investigated, but more on that later.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Mikkel
Still learning the Queen's English

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I promise I won't do that again, it already gets on my nerves 

 

So here instead is a nice little kit from Arch Laser Models. There are a few issues to be investigated, but more on that later.

 

 

Is this going to be loaded onto a wagon.....?

[Mikkel]

Hi Mark, nice idea but I’ll just be using it for cartage at Farthing. 

 

So far I haven’t been able to identify a prototype for the kit, although it loosely resembles a diagram E1 float. According to Osborn Models – who market the kit - it is based on an actual GWR drawing dated 1900, so I’ve written to ask which one. Incidentally the photo on the box and website shows a different model from the kit as provided.

 

Alternatively I may just use some of the parts for a little scratchbuild project . The wheels in particular are useful, being 4'6" diameter with 14 spokes, as used by the GWR on various horsedrawn vehicles. 

[Simond]

Mikkel,

 

what thickness is the material, please?  Is it plywood?

 

thx

Simon

[dave k]

Mikkel,

 

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

So far I haven’t been able to identify a prototype for the kit, although it loosely resembles a diagram E1 float. According to Osborn Models – who market the kit - it is based on an actual GWR drawing dated 1900, so I’ve written to ask which one. Incidentally the photo on the box and website shows a different model from the kit as provided

I’ve had a look in my copy of “Great Western Road Vehicle Appendix” by Phillip Kelly and there is a drawing of a “One Horse Float” which look to be identical to the model. The drawing is dated Swindon December 1908 and has drawing number of 38055.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by dave k

[Mikkel]

12 hours ago, Simond said:

Mikkel,

 

what thickness is the material, please?  Is it plywood?

 

thx

Simon

 

Simon, the wheels are 1.5 mms thick and the rest is 1mm. Not sure if it's plywood - laser cutting specialists will know better but it looks like this:

 

 

[Mikkel]

3 hours ago, dave k said:

Mikkel,

 

I’ve had a look in my copy of “Great Western Road Vehicle Appendix” by Phillip Kelly and there is a drawing of a “One Horse Float” which look to be identical to the model. The drawing is dated Swindon December 1908 and has drawing number of 38055.

 

 

 

Dave, that's what I thought. The GWR called this a diagram E1 (see the diagram sketches in Tony Atkins GWR Goods Cartage Vol 1). The drawing you mention can also be found in Great Western Horsepower by J. Russell fig. 183. Truth be told, the kit would need various modifications to match the drawing, most notably you'd have to make new front and rear ends. Which won't be hard but it seems that wasn't quite the idea behind the kit.

 

I'm in contact with Osborn Models and they are looking into it so will wait and see what they find.

[Mikkel]

So, it looks like these are the options for the Arch Laser kit:

1) Build it as supplied and don’t worry about prototypes.
2)   Modify the kit to make an actual prototype. It seems the kit was inspired by the GWR crank axle light cart Swindon Drawing 16384 in GWR Horse Power by Janet K.L. Russell. To make that,  you'd need to change the profile of the sides (they were straight and sloping on the prototype) and replace the ends. Alternatively, the E1 discussed above could be done by just replacing the ends.  In both cases, there are also various embellishments and framing to add, and you'd have to be pragmatic about overall dimensions.
3)  Or just use the wheels, brakes and shafts as components for an otherwise scratchbuilt model. 

 

I'll go for option 3. The prototype is another one horse float.

 

 

There's a nice photo of it in GW Way p.163 (original edition), and two good drawings in GW Horse Power (fig 180 and 182). Same photo in Atkins Goods Cartage p46, alongs with a similar but slightly more elaborate float.

 

 

The axles are cranked, allowing the floor to sit low. As I understand it, that's what makes a float a float. The association with milk came later.

 

 

 

Now adding the framing. They had a tilt (tarp over) so I'm not too worried about the interior.

[bgman]

If I may say so, I think you've made the right decision Mikkel.

 

Although I appreciate you have paid for what is supposed to be the correct ? prototype I think you will get more satisfaction by using the necessary pieces from the kit and be happier with the final product.

 

Nicely modelled so far.

 

G

[Mikkel]

Thanks G. It belongs of course in the category Very Small Projects - but I seem to have become addicted to 4mm horsedrawn vehicles. Sure beats designer drugs.

[2996 Victor]

Excellent work as always, Mikkel, and definitely the right decision!

 

Incidentally, would you say that Atkins' Goods Cartage book is a valuable asset to your library? I've been thinking of buying a copy.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[bgman]

10 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

would you say that Atkins' Goods Cartage book is a valuable asset to your library

 

Most definitely, also an interesting read.

 

G

[Harlequin]

49 minutes ago, bgman said:

 

Most definitely, also an interesting read.

 

G

Two volumes, remember...