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Can this Warship be identified?


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I wonder if anyone is able to identify this Warship, pictured at Hereford one autumn Sunday in 1971. I have to say it looks a fairly bog-standard example to me; but perhaps there is some cryptic distinguishing detail that some of you wizards might be able to spot.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10422072894/in/set-72157636832767166

 

I was on a Sunday afternoon circular excursion from Bristol which ran via the Severn Tunnel, Hereford (stop to visit Bulmer's Railway Centre), Worcester and back to Bristol. The fare was 60p.

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Thanks Pix. If I knew the exact date of the photo it might ,in combination with the withdrawal dates of the 43's, be possible to narrow it down. However I've now no way of establishing  the date. IT's just possible that the missing headboard clip is an artifact of my scanning software - "helpfully" removing "dust" - I'll try to check that.

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Looks like square ventilators too, book of warships not too hot on these, but 839 had them. Only on a few 43s the square ones. Key reference book in Bristol at the moment!

Plenty it can't be - I think 839 front runner though.

Neil

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Yes, really quite convincing. Thank you.

 

I see 839 was withdrawn on Oct 3rd along with all her remaining classmates, so this picture must have been taken almost at the end of her active life. I wonder if there is any possibility this was actually taken on the 3rd.

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I think 1A76 would have to be 18:20 Hereford - Paddington due 21:50 - I can't see anything else that fits. The stock for this service arrived approx 17:20 on the 16:30 from Worcester, so potentially enough light for late September. The Book of the Warships has D839 withdrawn on 04/10/71 at Newton Abbot.

 

I wonder if anyone has any loco diagrams to see what was due to be worked next out of Paddington?

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My money is on 839 too Andy. You have to be careful with the NBLs though as I think one, or possibly two of them had square holes cut into the panel at one end and round holes at the other! All of the holes were cut by hand in the Factory at Old Oak, it was a case of make do and mend / bodge it as you go  ;)

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The weather might be a clue. It doesn't look too good, but that may just be the combined exhaust from a departing 9-car dmu.

 

Sundays late summer in 1971 were 22nd and 29th Aug, plus 5th, 12th, 19th, 26th Sep, and we have already discounted 19th (post 8  )

 

Looking at historical weather charts, we can rule out the 5th Sep as that was a hot and sunny day.

 

 

Some other dates look a little too wet for the conditions shown in the photo (although I admit I am sticking my neck out, here).

 

My guess from the pressure patterns would be either 22nd August or 12th September.

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The weather might be a clue. It doesn't look too good, but that may just be the combined exhaust from a departing 9-car dmu.

 

Sundays late summer in 1971 were 22nd and 29th Aug, plus 5th, 12th, 19th, 26th Sep, and we have already discounted 19th (post 8  )

 

Looking at historical weather charts, we can rule out the 5th Sep as that was a hot and sunny day.

 

 

Some other dates look a little too wet for the conditions shown in the photo (although I admit I am sticking my neck out, here).

 

My guess from the pressure patterns would be either 22nd August or 12th September.

 

I think it was a gloomy day and I don't recall getting wet, and it was probably after the school term had begun, so on the basis of your meteorological evidence, the 12th might be the best bet.

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Thanks Andy.

 

That scenario you describe would fit with the charts for Sep 12th quite well, as there was a thundery low pressure over northern France but I suspect that although a lot of thick cloud had spread north, the main area of rain would be well to the south of Herefordshire.

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Delving into the Book of the Warships again, it seems the loco off 1A76 was due to work 1B01, an overnight Newspaper train back to Worcester on Monday morning, before working back to Paddington, and then Westbury. If the turn was followed (NA61) it would have finished the week at Westbury on Saturday morning. From Westbury turn 64 took class 43s down to Exeter, where as we know D839 was seen on 18/09/71. Whilst things often did not go to plan, I think it makes it more likely that Andy's photo was taken in first part of September.

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Interesting... In both photos 839 carries the headcode 1B65 with the 6 and 5 in the same positions relative to each other. I wonder if the second photo, on shed, is the same or following day after she failed at Dainton?

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The weather might be a clue. It doesn't look too good, but that may just be the combined exhaust from a departing 9-car dmu.

 

Sundays late summer in 1971 were 22nd and 29th Aug, plus 5th, 12th, 19th, 26th Sep, and we have already discounted 19th (post 8  )

 

Looking at historical weather charts, we can rule out the 5th Sep as that was a hot and sunny day.

 

 

Some other dates look a little too wet for the conditions shown in the photo (although I admit I am sticking my neck out, here).

 

My guess from the pressure patterns would be either 22nd August or 12th September.

I have the locos workings and definatly from 25th July 839 only worked 1A76 once, Tuesday 7th September. On 22/08 it was at NA under repair (transmission and turbo faults) and 12th September it was at NA and then ran LD to LA for repairs (cab fumes).  1A76 was the 18.05 to Paddington and 839 was failed at Paddington with A engine fuel leaks and low on power. It was repaired in time to work back early next day on the 01.10 Padd - Wos news and then back to London on the 07.00 Wos - Padd, the the WEstbury evening commuter. The Wos trip on the 08/09 was its last ever visit in traffic on the Cotswold route and the photo at Hereford is its last visit to Hereford before withdrawal. The diagram was NA 61 turn, and the loco stuck to its diagram from 13.15 that day working 1C56 to Hereford / 1A76 to Paddington / 1B01 to Worcester / 1A06 to Paddington / 1B84 to Westbury.

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Interesting... In both photos 839 carries the headcode 1B65 with the 6 and 5 in the same positions relative to each other. I wonder if the second photo, on shed, is the same or following day after she failed at Dainton?

Its the following day after it was failed on Hemerdon. It was working the 12.20 Plymouth to Paddington relief, came off at Hemerdon, and returned light to Laira. It was failed with exhaust blows and high transmission temperature trips.

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There was a DMU booked into Hereford at 18.10, 2V97 15.15 Lichfield City to Hereford. It was given 20 minutes to go from Ledbury (dep 17.50) to Hereford when other DMUs were given 9 minutes to do the same run so i'd say its taken from that DMU running in a bit early.

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Something doesn't quite add up..... If 839 only worked 1A76 once after July 1971 on Tuesday 7th September, then either this photo wasn't taken on a Sunday, which Andy seems certain of, or........this isn't 839.

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Something doesn't quite add up..... If 839 only worked 1A76 once after July 1971 on Tuesday 7th September, then either this photo wasn't taken on a Sunday, which Andy seems certain of, or........this isn't 839.

After all these years, there's every possibility that I might have misremembered something - the month, perhaps (could it have been July? I always think of this day as being near the end of the summer holidays, but I guess that could be wrong); but I'm 90% certain this was was indeed a Sunday. One thing I'm absolutely certain of is that the DMU was on a special working -  an afternoon excursion: Bristol TM - Severn Tunnel - Maindee East Curve - Hereford (interlude for sightseeing) - Worcester - Abbotswood Jn. - Bristol, and it was formed of three 3-car units. The picture was taken from that train as it was departing for Worcester.

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I can see now its departing Hereford now, signal off and smoke haze. 

 

I’ve looked on Six Bells and can’t find anything but that’s inconclusive.

 

On a Sunday 1A76 was 18.20 from Hereford as you said and the loco was booked to have been on Worcester shed from 19.05 on the Saturday (ironically off 1A76 18.05 ex Hfd), then work on the Sunday 2C18 16.20 Wos - Hfd and 1A76 18.20 Hfd - Padd. Prior to withdrawal the Sundays I have where it could of worked 2C18 / 1A76 are Sunday 4th July (it was at Worcester in the morning), Sunday 6th June no records, Sunday 23rd May no records, Sunday 16th May no records, Sunday 9th May no records (although it was at Salisbury on the previous day) and Sunday 2nd May.

 

Refereing to your previous posts Andy it could very well be Sunday 4th July? It was on the Cotswold Line on the 2nd...

 

In fact, looking at its train on the Friday, 1A26 14.15 Wos - Padd and following the diagram for Saturday the loco would of ended up at Worcester at 23.05 on the Saturday night, putting it in place to (be swapped off diagram) work 2C18 / 1A76 on the 4th.

 

Was the train in connection with a visit to Bulmers perhaps to see KGV being made ready for its return to steam?

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I can see now its departing Hereford now, signal off and smoke haze. 

 

I’ve looked on Six Bells and can’t find anything but that’s inconclusive.

 

On a Sunday 1A76 was 18.20 from Hereford as you said and the loco was booked to have been on Worcester shed from 19.05 on the Saturday (ironically off 1A76 18.05 ex Hfd), then work on the Sunday 2C18 16.20 Wos - Hfd and 1A76 18.20 Hfd - Padd. Prior to withdrawal the Sundays I have where it could of worked 2C18 / 1A76 are Sunday 4th July (it was at Worcester in the morning), Sunday 6th June no records, Sunday 23rd May no records, Sunday 16th May no records, Sunday 9th May no records (although it was at Salisbury on the previous day) and Sunday 2nd May.

 

Refereing to your previous posts Andy it could very well be Sunday 4th July? It was on the Cotswold Line on the 2nd...

 

In fact, looking at its train on the Friday, 1A26 14.15 Wos - Padd and following the diagram for Saturday the loco would of ended up at Worcester at 23.05 on the Saturday night, putting it in place to (be swapped off diagram) work 2C18 / 1A76 on the 4th.

 

Was the train in connection with a visit to Bulmers perhaps to see KGV being made ready for its return to steam?

 

 

Actually it could be the 4th July 1971 from a weather perspective, as the scenario of low pressure over NW France was very similar to that of Sept 12th.

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