Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single

[gr.king]

I'm amazed that any manufacturer planning to have a go at making such a notoriously tricky loco model would be rash enough to publicly announce a definite commitment to production without firstly evolving, in private, a viable computer simulation of the model loco or a successful working prototype, thus establishing what compromises would have to be made.

 

It's a bit like T. B. Liar announcing that we were going to have an all-joined-up totally paperless NHS and paperless system of government at a time when no adequate technology existed and nobody could possibly confirm that such technology could be successfully created at affordable cost.

 

I've a feeling that the only way that the model will ever be made to look sufficiently "correct" will be to ignore those who want to run trains round silly little table top ovals.

[MarkSG]

I'm amazed that any manufacturer planning to have a go at making such a notoriously tricky loco model would be rash enough to publicly announce a definite commitment to production without firstly evolving, in private, a viable computer simulation of the model loco or a successful working prototype, thus establishing what compromises would have to be made.

Neither of those is possible without the preparatory work involved in the initial scanning and conversion of that to basic CAD files. It's hard to get past that stage - particularly the scan, where that involves the cooperation of a museum - without going public. Equally, getting a working prototype that's suitable as the base for a production model involves the initial contract with the design shop, which also requires a certain level of commitment.

 

In any case, I think you're being misled by Rapdo's Canadian humour. There's no real risk that this model is going to need unacceptable compromises beyond those inherent in creating an OO model of anything. They're just having a bit of fun with the progress reports. And, of course, the harder they make it sound, the more in awe we will be when it's finally running on our tracks

 

It's a bit like T. B. Liar announcing that we were going to have an all-joined-up totally paperless NHS and paperless system of government at a time when no adequate technology existed and nobody could possibly confirm that such technology could be successfully created at affordable cost.

Your prejudice is showing there.

 

I've a feeling that the only way that the model will ever be made to look sufficiently "correct" will be to ignore those who want to run trains round silly little table top ovals.

 

And there.

[John B]

I did think at the time that this would be the ideal candidate for a first ​manufacturer produced* ​ready to run P4 model... No problem with clearances or the ability to go around sub-4ft radius curves there!

 

Bill - I think the "user applied" splashers could also be a great idea for those of us who want to re-gauge the beastie to EM or P4. Just the sort of innovative thinking I've come to expect from Rapido, eh?

[Removed a/c]

I'm amazed that any manufacturer planning to have a go at making such a notoriously tricky loco model would be rash enough to publicly announce a definite commitment to production without firstly evolving, in private, a viable computer simulation of the model loco or a successful working prototype, thus establishing what compromises would have to be made.

 

It's a bit like T. B. Liar announcing that we were going to have an all-joined-up totally paperless NHS and paperless system of government at a time when no adequate technology existed and nobody could possibly confirm that such technology could be successfully created at affordable cost.

 

I've a feeling that the only way that the model will ever be made to look sufficiently "correct" will be to ignore those who want to run trains round silly little table top ovals.

Glad you aren't making it then or there would be one cancellation from this silly table top user.   

[JaymzHatstand]

Well, it seems I'd best rethink ordering one then. I'm not blessed with space for 4' curves, so it seems I should be punished for that. I did feel fortunate that I'm allowed a room in our house to have for my hobby, now it seems I've got the short end of the stick. No space for scale curves, the shame of it.

 

I'm glad to know my efforts are 'silly', that's a real encouragment.

 

While we're on the subject of the unreasonability of Rapido putting a lot of hard effort and thought into overcoming such a problem for us lesser modellers. I would like to add that it is very much appreciated and admired (by some of us) that they have persevered and found a sensible solution, after reading the other options they looked at.

 

Still looking forward to seeing it trundle round a purpose built table-top oval!

 

Cheers

 

J

[PaulRhB]

I'm amazed that any manufacturer planning to have a go at making such a notoriously tricky loco model would be rash enough to publicly announce a definite commitment to production without firstly evolving, in private, a viable computer simulation of the model loco or a successful working prototype, thus establishing what compromises would have to be made.

 

I've a feeling that the only way that the model will ever be made to look sufficiently "correct" will be to ignore those who want to run trains round silly little table top ovals.

I took it more as the usual light hearted Rapido news, admitting they had a problem at one stage but as Bill pointed out it was already sorted and mentioned in the original.

 

The whole point of physical prototyping is to see if the it works as the computer suggests.

 

I doubt Rapido use high end computer simulation modelling just Computer Aided Design and the the first isn't always part of CAD unless you go looking for clashes. It's a subtle difference and the problem was noticed and sorted, all the guys are doing is letting you in on a bit of the development process. If you look at any of the threads on the O2, 71 etc you'll see they always say a few issues to be sorted from the prototype.

Edited June 2, 2016 by PaulRhB

[stewartingram]

Another possible solution here:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fairground+train+rides&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&imgil=shnRIMZtjUMpFM%253A%253B7KXsS0c9Y5olSM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.irvinleisure.co.uk%25252Ffunfair-rides%25252Fchildrens-rides%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=shnRIMZtjUMpFM%253A%252C7KXsS0c9Y5olSM%252C_&usg=__E5FYEn2zUYv3kD0LSWss1JD59jU%3D&biw=1600&bih=768#imgrc=shnRIMZtjUMpFM%3A

 

Stewart

 

(Is that a link& a half!)

 

Stewart

[Jeff Smith]

Let's face it in OO steam locos any leading bogie or truck is along for the ride and has no control over the front of the loco....there may be some side springing but pretty minimal. Most steam locos look pretty ridiculous going around tight radii but this is one of the compromises of OO that many people are happy to live with.

[gr.king]

In the specific context of a Stirling Single, key cosmetic features are simply not compatible with severely unrealistic curves. It makes no sense to pretend that they are. It isn't the loco that is wrong or silly, since it has basis in reality. It just confirms the inconvenient truth that the curves are silly. That's not a slur or an insult directed at those who use toy train track, it's just fact.

[MarkSG]

In the specific context of a Stirling Single, key cosmetic features are simply not compatible with severely unrealistic curves. It makes no sense to pretend that they are. It isn't the loco that is wrong or silly, since it has basis in reality. It just confirms the inconvenient truth that the curves are silly. That's not a slur or an insult directed at those who use toy train track, it's just fact.

 

If you didn't keep using the phrase "toy train track" then your claim that it isn't a slur or insult might be a tad more plausible. The reality is that modelling in OO involves compromises, the biggest of which is the track gauge itself. Even the more accurate gauges still involve some compromise, due to the simple fact that the laws of physics don't scale and most of us - even clubs - don't have unlimited space.

 

Some of the best exhibition layouts I've seen include curves that are significantly tighter than true scale would dictate. Describing them as "toy train track" isn't just an insult, it's hugely wide of reality.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Perhaps those who are forced to use track radii considerably smaller than the prototype should consider that it won't always be possible to design a model of some locomotives to suit their layout.

 

OO wheel standards, noticeably the width over the faces of the wheels provides some benefits with bogie swing, etc.However, there is a limit to what that provides and how much you may be able to "relieve" the backs of cylinders, narrow or taper frames, provide cut-outs in frames, etc. for more clearance. There will be a conflict between accuracy/appearance and meeting the needs of those that have to use small radius curves, What compromise the designer is willing to make will depend on a number of factors. The improvement in the "quality" of today's RTR models - and therefore people's greater expectations of new models - may mean that some of those compromises may not be unough for everyone.

[PaulRhB]

Ah but they have solved the issue of getting it round R2 . . . .

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ah but they have solved the issue of getting it round R2 . . . .

What is R2? I don't think in such terms but of radii in inches. When I have designed loco kits I aim at a minimum radius (say 30" or less if practical). People have asked what radius particular locos are designed to cope with but only in terms of inches.

[JaymzHatstand]

Peco list Radius 2 at 17 1/4 inches, which when you see it written down, really does seem very tight indeed!

 

I presume this is the figure being worked to, and is certainly one heck of a challenge!

 

Cheers

 

J

[billbedford]

Ah but they have solved the issue of getting it round R2 . . . .

 

 

Check rails?

[Edwardian]

It is sensible to attempt to cater for reasonably tight curves, as this is a compromise many modellers adopt, and a pre-Grouping locomotive hauling appropriate 6-wheelers as its modern mainline express coaches will look a lot less comprised around tight curves than a large passenger class with a string of mk1 coaches.  Though, getting your 6-wheelers round the curves might be the biggest challenge!

 

In any case, even if one has the luxury of generous curves on the scenic section of a layout, one may still need to resort to tight off-stage curves and loops.  This is all the more likely to be the case where attempting to model a mainline appropriate to a model such as the Single.

 

Moreover, I must say that snubbing those who may have a 6' x 4' with "train-set" curves is really not on.

[JaymzHatstand]

I notice that the Locomotion Models website has currently suspended pre-orders, though do suggest that they will hopefully return soon and those still wishing to do so should email to be added to the list. Not sure how long this has been the case, but the text below is a direct copy of it...

 

"The models were expected at the end of 2016, but due to uncertainties in the Chinese factories we are not sure of the exact date of delivery. We hope it will be around May/June 2017 but until we have more information on delivery times etc we will not take any more deposits. However you can still register your interest by emailing queries@locomotionmodels.com and as soon as they go back on sale we will be in touch.

 

We hope it will be back on the website in a matter of weeks!

 

Models will be available 2017"

 

I don't envisage that there are any major problems and that development is hopefully progressing as expected.

 

Cheers

 

J

[Ozexpatriate]

I don't envisage that there are any major problems and that development is hopefully progressing as expected.

Recent blog posts by Rapido Trains indicate that they are working to resolve some manufacturing capacity issues.

[JaymzHatstand]

Aha! Thanks for that, most useful and reassuring!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Gerald Henriksen]

Brief (about 10 seconds or less) mention of the Single in Rapido's video of their new 2nd factory - they showed 2 people making corrections to the CAD - and a mention of something Jason had to straighten out in person:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlbMfyaOykE

 

The mention happens at about the 2:30 point, though prior to that you can see their painting setup and pad printing.

[Legend]

Very impressive. Shows the complexity of manufacturing people sometimes take for granted eg painting the. VIA Rail loco. You would think quite a simple operation but actually involving significant machinery and several passes. Lots of space for expansion.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Legend

[Jol Wilkinson]

Apart from the benefit of Chinese wages, it makes you wonder why you couldn't do that anywhere else in the world. The equipment or "factory" doesn't look exceptional. Are rents, etc. significantly lower? Or does it have to do with health and safety, working conditions, etc?

[chris p bacon]

Apart from the benefit of Chinese wages, it makes you wonder why you couldn't do that anywhere else in the world. The equipment or "factory" doesn't look exceptional. Are rents, etc. significantly lower? Or does it have to do with health and safety, working conditions, etc?

The first part is your answer.

 

I don't have any information on "Factory" rates but I can say that a shop we purchased that is undergoing conversion to residential (it's out of town and solitary) had a rates bill last year of £2540, this year there has been a business rates review and the same premises is now £3651 It has approx 300 square feet of retail space. I somehow doubt there are the same costs in China.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The first part is your answer.

 

I don't have any information on "Factory" rates but I can say that a shop we purchased that is undergoing conversion to residential (it's out of town and solitary) had a rates bill last year of £2540, this year there has been a business rates review and the same premises is now £3651 It has approx 300 square feet of retail space. I somehow doubt there are the same costs in China.

Lower wages are often cited but you are probably correct that other costs are much lower to make the expense and difficulty incurred with managing a business at long distance worthwhile.

 

Sadly successive governments seem unwilling to support small scale, low profile industry in the UK. 

[MarkSG]

The first part is your answer.

 

I don't have any information on "Factory" rates but I can say that a shop we purchased that is undergoing conversion to residential (it's out of town and solitary) had a rates bill last year of £2540, this year there has been a business rates review and the same premises is now £3651 It has approx 300 square feet of retail space. I somehow doubt there are the same costs in China.

 

It's not just that, though.There are plenty of other countries, particularly (although not exclusively) in the Far East, which can offer the same or better combination of low wages and low infrastructure costs. But it's partly the "cluster effect". A lot of models are manufactured in China because a lot of other models are manufactured in China!

 

China has successfully established itself as the leading provider in the particular niche of scale models, in much the same way that Switzerland once did with watches and Japan with consumer electronics. So a company elsewhere in the world which wants a supplier that can manufacture, say, a model locomotive, knows that in China there are several companies which will offer that and have both the experience and skills to get it right.

 

That makes China the first port of call when seeking such a supplier, because it's a reliable, low risk option. It isn't necessarily the cheapest, and it isn't necessarily the most convenient. But it is a safe, sensible choice which minimises the risk of things going wrong.

 

Such things are not set in stone, of course, and ten or twenty years from now it may well be that much of our model railway equipment is manufactured somewhere else. But, right now, China is where it's at.