The Cost of Our Hobby

[RBAGE]

This months BRM includes an interview with the new man at the top of Bachmann, David Harrhaus.

 

In the article he makes reference to the relative cost of models in 00 and N gauges.

He justifies the fact that N gauge models are similar to 00 gauge because the research, design, tooling and manufacturing are the same and the cost of the additional materials has quite a small impact.

 

If this explanation is correct, can anyone explain why with the same logic, 0 gauge locomotive models are at the very least about 5 or 6 times the price of 00 gauge. If you look at a high end locomotive then your looking at 10 or even 20 times the cost.

 

Or is the price difference more like based on perception and what people are able or prepared to pay?

 

Bob

[raymw]

Not many folk play with 7mm, so costs need recovering over fewer models, hence higher price.

[BoD]

An interesting point.

I had always accepted the argument for parity of prices between N and OO as quite logical, but it does fall down when you consider applying the same logic to O. Even taking into account that doubling a linear measurement gives an eight fold increase in volume.

 

Perhaps it's a case of demand. They are always going to have to cover costs whilst selling far fewer models.

 

Edit: beaten to it by last post.

[Stevelewis]

It is  quite  simply  a  case  of  the  volume  sales as  far  as  0 gauge is  concerned. 0 Gauge  does not  create  volume  sales,  The  scale needs space  to  create  anything  meaningful, I know  there  are  several small 0 gauge  layouts around,  but  how  long  does  the  interest in small layouts  last?, I have a few contacts  who have  built small 0  layouts who have eventually sold  or  scrapped them, simply  because  they lost interest in them, they  had gone  as  far  as  they  could  with  them,  and like a lot nowadays tend to  group together to  build a larger meaningful layout where  they  can  run their  stock. and  actaully  see it  peform as intended.

 

When  Bachmann Marketed  their  Bachmann Brass  0 Gauge  range  A well known 0 Gauge  retailer  who specialises in 0 Gauge and  whose  premises  is  close  to a Tower on  the Lancashire  coast, told  me  that the  normal run  for  the  smaller  locos  ( 0-6-0T etc)  was  around  150, whilst the larger locos manufacturing  run  could be  as  low  as  75.  The  Bachmann Brass  Range  was  discontinued a few  years  ago.

 

A retailer who I know  quite well  whose  ranges include scales  from  N gauge 00 & H0  0  & G scale  tells me  that  he  is  lucky  if  he  sells 1   0 or G scale  loco a month  ( although  he  sold  2  last  month  as  I bought one too!)

[melmerby]

Not many folk play with 7mm, so costs need recovering over fewer models, hence higher price.

Using that logic, less people play with N compared with 00 so shouldn't N cost somewhat more than 00?

 

Keith

[roythebus]

This also goes back to a conversation I had with Charlie Skelton of W&H Models at the Toy Fair circa 1982 about the quantities of HO produced against 00. He reckoned that if the UK adopted HO scale, the quality of models would go up and the prices come down. The logic was that in mainland Europe, there's people who simply collect whatever comes out in a particular scale, irrespective of the railway. Hence a Dutch loco for instance could sell as many thousands as a DB ,loco because they're all HO.

 

So those 23 locos could have a production run of 20,000 units and sell them fairly quickly.

 

A British loco in OO would have a production run of say 2000 because they would only sell here. The Europeans would not buy them because they're the wrong scale!

 

Mind you, that argument is a bit dated with the excellence of most of the British models made in China these days, but production runs are still alarmingly small compared with European models.

[brianusa]

A look at dealers prices show where once there was a much higher difference in price between OO and N, nowadays there sometimes are overlapping price ranges. Possibly this is due to the electronics that now can be packed into an N loco as well as OO models thanks to miniaturisation of components. O is a whole different ball game due to the physical size demanding more raw materials, larger motors and other components, etc. While the three rail market is the prime impetus for manufacturers in O scale there are many now that can be used either for scale or toy markets. Contrary to popular belief, there are many large O layouts now especially in the US. Mine is room size and is considered quite modest!

 

Brian.

[Revolution Mike]

Using that logic, less people play with N compared with 00 so shouldn't N cost somewhat more than 00?

 

Keith

It isn't so much the number of people that matter as the volume of sales.  (Sweeping generalisation) N gauge modellers have more space for stock so are more likely to buy approaching scale length trains.

 

So the number of people buying may be fewer but the volume of sales per person may be similar or higher for N than OO.

 

Cheers, Mike

[sub39h]

Not many folk play with 7mm, so costs need recovering over fewer models, hence higher price.

 

Surely by this logic 00 gauge should be cheaper than N then? I was under the impression that 00 gauge was by far the biggest market for UK outline models. 

 

Edit: just seen the post above mine which does provide a reasonable explanation - I would argue that because of the fewer numbers of N gauge modellers we wouldn't see the same diversity though so I would still expect N gauge products to sell in fewer numbers than 00. 

[rue_d_etropal]

Somewhere on this forum someone said price of continental HO models was higher because they were only produced in small quantities, which I find odd, and think the view expressed about collectors is correct. It does not explain why models produced in HO by Hornby cost more than a similar sized model in OO. I think my original comment about cross subsidising is probably correct. The prices charged are normally what a manufacturer thinks they can get for the model.

I have been considering some gauge 1 modelling, and note that gauge 1 prices are not much more expensive than O gauge, and there are probably fewer modeling in gauge 1.

I would be surprised if a lot of those dabbling in O gauge and only building small layouts gave up because of lack of interest. The bigger scales have a big advantage, the Z dimension, giving more volume to fill. It's just that you can do more in a small space. A more likely explanation is that many modellers think in terms of mainline railways not small branchlines. This might also account for smaller interest in narrow gauge, although the recent OO9 models are generating a lot of interest.

Although r2r models are a lot better running now, the bigger scale models still can run even better, something that is important on small shunting layouts.

[bgman]

Just a thought........( in a friendly voice)

 

When I worked for myself I naturally took into account all my on costs, whether it be travelling or down to the cost of a postage stamp in my final invoice to a client. I don't recall any one haggling or trying to get a discount in the years I ran my business (drawing architectural plans). How many of here have a business and have someone turn away at the cost of an item or service ? You're not obliged to buy an item from one manufacturer at the end of the day.

I have turned away from the "British" scene and thoroughly enjoy and I might add, happy to pay for the more expensive European items which give me great delight. I suppose I'm in a lucky position to be able to afford them, and in my honest opinion find that the detail and reliability, so far, is better, you pays ya money !

Is it me or just a general "British" attitude ?

[sub39h]

Just a thought........( in a friendly voice)

 

When I worked for myself I naturally took into account all my on costs, whether it be travelling or down to the cost of a postage stamp in my final invoice to a client. I don't recall any one haggling or trying to get a discount in the years I ran my business (drawing architectural plans). How many of here have a business and have someone turn away at the cost of an item or service ? You're not obliged to buy an item from one manufacturer at the end of the day.

I have turned away from the "British" scene and thoroughly enjoy and I might add, happy to pay for the more expensive European items which give me great delight. I suppose I'm in a lucky position to be able to afford them, and in my honest opinion find that the detail and reliability, so far, is better, you pays ya money !

Is it me or just a general "British" attitude ?

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting good value for money. The other thing to bear in mind is that for the hobby to survive and thrive you need to attract new people into it.

 

I am 28 years old. I have attended Warley twice (2013 and 2014), Ally Pally once (2013), Doncaster (2013), Worthing (2013) and a few smaller shows and toy fairs. Often I seem to be by far the youngest adult of the people I see. I got lucky - I got into the hobby at the very tail end of the "Golden Era", so I got some very cheap models (brand new Bachmann Class 37 for £46 from a well known Liverpool shop for example), and I'm lucky to have amassed most of the stock I'll ever need. 

 

I'm not a man of limited means - I have a professional vocational degree and am voluntarily studying at university again and all being well I will be very well recompensed once I am fully qualified in my desired field and I have two rental properties too. However I would find it very hard indeed to explain to my wife why I want to spend £200 on a single loco or £50 on a wagon or coach. I spent less than £250 taking her to Edinburgh for Valentine's weekend including petrol from Coventry and food and accommodation whilst we were there! 

 

So I'm very happy that you have the means and the social circumstances to spend large sums on nice models - but it is off putting for new comers. I definitely would not have gotten into the hobby if a loco and rake was going to cost me £400 (Bachmann loco, plus 8  Mk1s/Mk2s or Hornby 2+7 HST etc). There are far more worthwhile things I could do with that money and I imagine that a lot of younger people feel the same way that I do.

 

I'm just very glad that I got in while the going was good, and hopefully some of things on my wishlist will end up in the bargain bin and I'll pick them up then. If not I have plenty of other things to be playing with, both choo choos and otherwise! 

[kirtleypete]

It will be interesting to see how Dapol get on with their RTR 0 gauge; they are producing 300 of each version of the Terrier to begin with which isn't many compared to what an 00 loco would sell. The price is not vastly greater than a 4mm loco though, £350 for a sound equipped 0 gauge loco is a bargain as far as I'm concerend when you look at what Lenz and MBW 0 gauge loco's cost for instance. 

 

Peter

[Focalplane]

I would love to be modeling in O gauge but my problem is the space required for something meaningful.  One attraction to the gauge is that as one's eyesight deteriorates it is easier to see and apply small items (like lamp irons in OO gauge which I have a hard time with).  I would also consider going outdoors with O gauge, but I don't have a garden!

 

And N gauge (as you will realize from the above) is really not on for me any more.

 

Having lived in the States for many years and having become an ardent SP fan (see avatar) I do own several HO locomotives and a lot of rolling stock.  Generally, the prices I paid for them are significantly lower than equivalent UK models and this is best explained by the fact that the North American HO market is many times larger than the British OO gauge market.  That being said, I am actually amazed by the range of British RTR locos available, not to mention the range of brass and white metal kits.  This particularly applies to steam locomotives.  In the States it is easy to buy large steam locomotives, near impossible to buy 0-6-0 switchers in you favorite road name.

[kirtleypete]

I'd rather have a small 0 gauge layout than a big 00 or N one, but it's just what appeals to me, we're all different. 

 

Peter

[Legend]

I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting good value for money. The other thing to bear in mind is that for the hobby to survive and thrive you need to attract new people into it.

 

I am 28 years old. I have attended Warley twice (2013 and 2014), Ally Pally once (2013), Doncaster (2013), Worthing (2013) and a few smaller shows and toy fairs. Often I seem to be by far the youngest adult of the people I see. I got lucky - I got into the hobby at the very tail end of the "Golden Era", so I got some very cheap models (brand new Bachmann Class 37 for £46 from a well known Liverpool shop for example), and I'm lucky to have amassed most of the stock I'll ever need.

 

I'm not a man of limited means - I have a professional vocational degree and am voluntarily studying at university again and all being well I will be very well recompensed once I am fully qualified in my desired field and I have two rental properties too. However I would find it very hard indeed to explain to my wife why I want to spend £200 on a single loco or £50 on a wagon or coach. I spent less than £250 taking her to Edinburgh for Valentine's weekend including petrol from Coventry and food and accommodation whilst we were there!

 

So I'm very happy that you have the means and the social circumstances to spend large sums on nice models - but it is off putting for new comers. I definitely would not have gotten into the hobby if a loco and rake was going to cost me £400 (Bachmann loco, plus 8 Mk1s/Mk2s or Hornby 2+7 HST etc). There are far more worthwhile things I could do with that money and I imagine that a lot of younger people feel the same way that I do.

 

I'm just very glad that I got in while the going was good, and hopefully some of things on my wishlist will end up in the bargain bin and I'll pick them up then. If not I have plenty of other things to be playing with, both choo choos and otherwise!

 

I've resisted posting on this thread as I'm aware that certain people are fed up with me banging on about cost, but I'm so happy to see someone other than me posting . Absolutely spot on sir!. I really commend this to the folks to Bachmann to read. They may increase prices but will ultimately sell less. I haven't bought BRM so no doubt David Haarhuus is on a charm offensive telling us why costs have to go up,no doubt with exploded pictures of parts. Sorry there are two sides to the story. It may cost you more to make but there are less people able to justify buying your goods, even if they have the means.

 

As to Model Rail, I was given a copy to read the editorial . Lots of mentions about Bachmann bashing, not one mention of increased prices ( twice in one year , by the way) And they do not take the manufacturers view? Unbelievable

 

Time we had a magazine representing the Model Railway Consumer not the manufacturer

[Stanier16]

I for one totally agree with your accurate observations. One question that has never been asked is (or perhaps I missed it?) is: With two price increases by Bachmann in a year and the British modeller told to shut-up and pay up, has Bachmann, profit margin increased or decreased? Perhaps I'm cynical, but I would plum for the former, rather than the latter!

[Oakydoke]

.....has Bachmann, profit margin increased or decreased? Perhaps I'm cynical, but I would plum for the former, rather than the latter!

As they are said to have been making a loss on many models, I'm sure they're hoping it'll be the former.

i.e. Increased from a negative to a positive number.

[darren01]

I believe we created this ourselves, Why?, look at it this way, we where happy to pay £150+ for ltd editions and being a high demand for them, Bachmann saw this and thought, well they will pay for these models so why not just pull all the rest of our models into line.

 

Smaller runs on models, higher prices, more profit and it will not stop there, it's only going to get worse, yes they will sell there models, but a smaller amount will buy/afforded them.

I have looked at what I have got 50+ loco's and have now drawn a line and will only buy maybe one or two models a year and only the loco's that fit in with my area, so I will not be buying a model that looks nice on impulse buys.

 

And if the prices keep going up and up then I will stop and call it a day on new models, it would be nice to have them, but I don't need them.

I feel sorry for anyone that come into the hobby in the next few years and having to pay these crazy prices!

It not even been constant on the price increases , some models have gone up by more than 50% , Pill box guards van was £12.95 now £24.95 as an example.

 

If Oxford rail can bring wagons in at £8-9.00 a model it just shows what sort of mark up Bachmann are making on each model and if Oxford rail end up doing a lot more rolling stock and these sell well, then I think Bachmann maybe in for a bit of a shock when there stock just ends up sitting on shop selves collecting dust.

I just can not justify paying for some of the new prices they are asking, I am not asking for the models to be rock bottom prices, But prices I feel that I am not being ripped off. 

And has Legend said two price increases in one year, did Bachmann not say in there press release that they would be doing a price increases once a year, so why two?.

 

Even my local two shops can not sell Bachmann stuff as no one want to pay there silly prices, Hornby is out selling Bachmann at the moment, it's killing the Hobby and killing the shops they way they are going!.

 

The thing I do not get is if Bachmann know for years that they where selling there models to cheap, why did it take them so long to work this one out? 

Darren

[Legend]

Interestingly Model Railways Direct have just put out an email with savings. There are a lot of good savings on Bachmann. Maybe they are not selling at higher prices?

[BlackRat]

I've just bought a pipe wagon and whilst very nice......... Almost £25...... Frankly no, sorry.

 

And yes I can afford them, I suppose it's just a mindset thing, as I have always worked things out in meals out.

 

So a good meal out and a pleasant evening used to be round about the cost of a loco from Bachy.

 

Now it equates to two or maybe three wagons?

 

So it's happily back to Messrs Parkside, Dundas and Cambrian etc

[Baby Deltic]

I've just bought a pipe wagon and whilst very nice......... Almost £25...... Frankly no, sorry.

 

And yes I can afford them, I suppose it's just a mindset thing, as I have always worked things out in meals out.

 

So a good meal out and a pleasant evening used to be round about the cost of a loco from Bachy.

 

Now it equates to two or maybe three wagons?

 

So it's happily back to Messrs Parkside, Dundas and Cambrian etc

As Neil has mentioned, £25 for what is an extremely basic wagon from Bachmann (especially the Pipe and Tube), and one of the easiest to build Parkside kits in their range is really taking the p***. I too have bought one or two, but only as a reference for kit building purposes. Yes, there's the inconvenience of having to paint and decorate the Parkside model with transfers, etc, but even so, it will still work out much cheaper to do a batch of those than buy the same number of Bachmann tubes off the shelf. I tend to buy expensive RTR wagons singly for a reference now if the same wagon is available as a kit elsewhere.

[BlackRat]

I would probably have bought 3 or 5 to make up a small but interesting train. (Even numbers just never look right!).

 

But if we look at say 5 tubes, plus a Pillbox brake, we are looking somewhere around £150, which is a pretty good bit of scran at a posh (have to dress up) eatery whichever way you look at it.

 

Still good luck to Bacchy, I am sure they have their reason's for doing what they are in the same way that Hornby are.

 

I've got enough kits to keep me going for a fair bit, along with transfers etc, so its no longer a case of making loads and weathering......its the whole shebang.

 

And I don't think I am any worse off for that.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I've resisted posting on this thread as I'm aware that certain people are fed up with me banging on about cost......

 

.....we where happy to pay £150+ for ltd editions and being a high demand for them, Bachmann saw this and thought, well they will pay for these models so why not just pull all the rest of our models into line.

 

.....Smaller runs on models, higher prices, more profit and it will not stop there, it's only going to get worse, yes they will sell there models, but a smaller amount will buy/afforded them.

 

......having to pay these crazy prices!

 

.....Pill box guards van was £12.95 now £24.95 as an example.

 

.....I just can not justify paying for some of the new prices they are asking, I am not asking for the models to be rock bottom prices, But prices I feel that I am not being ripped off. 

 

We are being told by many people in various quarters, not just Bachmann, that prices will continue to rise for the foreseeable future.

If your suspicions or accusations of "profiteering" are unfounded and the industry wide warnings of price increases and the reasons behind them, are correct, then your protests will ultimately be of no avail.

 

Sadly and unfortunately inevitably, those who are unwilling or unable to buy new RTR models at the higher prices will just have to lose out. A tough fact of life.

Would that be damaging?

How the RTR manufacturers cope with any reduction in sales is up to them. They'll sink or swim by their own endeavours.

Will the model railway industry suffer? Undoubtedly some players in the business will suffer, or if the worst were to happen, even withdraw if there is a enough of a reduction in sales volumes and income.

Will it stop people modelling? Probably not. Most of us have plenty of toys to keep us going for a lifetime.

A disincentive to new people taking up the hobby? Probably, but there might be positive as well as negative aspects to that (deliberately controversial).

The model railway hobby might end up being a different ball game, in terms of costs and degree of participation, but it wouldn't be unique in this regard.

 

I'm one of the lucky ones who could, if I wanted to, carry on buying my models and not worrying about the price; but I am also struggling to justify the expense and feel I have to be more circumspect in my purchases, even though I don't need to.

The situation isn't going to change though. The prices won't come down, unless some enterprising firm finds a way to deliver equivalent quality for less money, or the manufacturers can find a way to address their rising costs and maintain their profitability, whilst maintaining quality

 

I note that both Bachmann Europe and Hornby group are losing money.

I also note that apart from a few exceptions (e.g. low quality Bachmann US models), our RTR models (British outline) are by far still the cheapest in the world.

 

As much as I dislike it, I am convinced that the argument that UK prices need to rise and the reasons behind it, is largely based on the true facts of the situation.

If there is an element of charging what the market will stand, however small or large that element may be, it's a normal, legitimate business practice and a calculated risk on their part. After all, these companies are in it to make money and any miscalculation in this area would be self damaging. That's their worry, not ours.

 

 

 

 

As Neil has mentioned, £25 for what is an extremely basic wagon from Bachmann (especially the Pipe and Tube), and one of the easiest to build Parkside kits in their range is really taking the p***.

.....Yes, there's the inconvenience of having to paint and decorate the Parkside model with transfers, etc, but even so, it will still work out much cheaper to do a batch of those than buy the same number of Bachmann tubes off the shelf. 

 

Of course buying and building a kit will be cheaper than having to pay the cost of someone else building the model for you, painting and decorating it and all the attendant costs that go with delivering that finished RTR model into your hands.

Do you expect all that for free?

 

 

.

[chris p bacon]

I find it funny but at the same time annoying when there is moaning about price rises, sadly it's a fact of life.

 

For the last quotations I issued I had to reduce the timelimit on them from 28 days to 14 as you cannot guarantee being able to get products at the same price, IIRC the record for plasterboard was 11 price rises in 12 months.

 

Prices rise and if you can't afford it then sadly you can't have it. If the manufacturers can't sell enough then they won't make any.  . . best learn how to kit build. . . .oh hang on everyone wants a cheap RTR and the kit market shrunk. . .. . .and the circle starts again