RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 Not many folk play with 7mm, so costs need recovering over fewer models, hence higher price. To a lesser extent, true of British N as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Of course buying and building a kit will be cheaper than having to pay the cost of someone else building the model for you, painting and decorating it and all the attendant costs that go with delivering that finished RTR model into your hands. Do you expect all that for free? And there's me thinking they were massed produced in a factory as opposed to being hand made. Now I'm available for curry, beer and the odd pasty! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 16, 2015 This feeling that we can do nothing is what annoys me. Simple don't buy anything, or buy sparingly, the price will soon come down, as I suspect you are seeing at Model Railways Direct. For years Bachmann have been making really good products at reasonable cost. Yes I do accept that prices are increasing but only the labour content but I can't see that that equates to 15%-20% per annum increases. This is more to do with Kader trying to drive profitability in UK market up to European levels. Well sorry its a different market. And if they can't produce at reasonable price its they who will be marginalised. Ask yourself how can Oxford make POs for sale at £8.95. They produce in China and presumably have the same labour issues And as Black Rat says these are mass produced mouldings. As to £69.95 autocoaches, the reason that they are that price in retrospect is that enough people went out and bought the Inspection Saloon . Now Bachmann think there is a going rate for these models. Right I've risen to the bait again, off for a lie down in a darkened room Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 This feeling that we can do nothing is what annoys me. Simple don't buy anything, or buy sparingly, the price will soon come down, Or they'll produce less quantity and the price will rise. You mention Oxford for £8.95, can you tell me where I can purchase one from today. I wouldn't mind having one in my hand to do a comparison with the existing ranges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 5 Bear Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Or they'll produce less quantity and the price will rise. You mention Oxford for £8.95, can you tell me where I can purchase one from today. I wouldn't mind having one in my hand to do a comparison with the existing ranges. I don't think the Oxford wagons and the Radial tank are in the shops as yet, however they are apparently due for release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 I look at it on a model-by-model basis. If I really want one to run, I'll buy it (and Bachmann's Auto-trailer qualifies) but I no longer bother with anything purely for the display cabinet or which would require me to invoke "Rule 1". As a result, the hobby is costing me less now than it did five years ago and half of the Bachmann models I have bought in the interim wouldn't qualify if they were released today. Bachmann prices don't bother me too much as they make very little that is of interest to me anyway! The number of items they currently have in the pipeline that I'll definitely be buying can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. By contrast, if Hornby manage to get everything they have announced for this year out this year, they'll attract around 90% of my 2015 r-t-r purchasing budget. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 This feeling that we can do nothing is what annoys me. Simple don't buy anything, or buy sparingly, the price will soon come down, as I suspect you are seeing at Model Railways Direct. For years Bachmann have been making really good products at reasonable cost. Yes I do accept that prices are increasing but only the labour content but I can't see that that equates to 15%-20% per annum increases. This is more to do with Kader trying to drive profitability in UK market up to European levels. Well sorry its a different market. And if they can't produce at reasonable price its they who will be marginalised. Ask yourself how can Oxford make POs for sale at £8.95. They produce in China and presumably have the same labour issues And as Black Rat says these are mass produced mouldings. As to £69.95 autocoaches, the reason that they are that price in retrospect is that enough people went out and bought the Inspection Saloon . Now Bachmann think there is a going rate for these models. Right I've risen to the bait again, off for a lie down in a darkened room Information received from a very credible source advised that a recent article in the model railway press reported that the average hourly rate in China was equivalent to £1.11 per hour. The Chinese government has wants wages to rise by 20% per year for the next 5 years. A 20% rise equates to about 22 pence. If it takes 5 hours of manual assembly of a simple wagon (not an expensive autoballaster) that would be a manpower cost increase of £1.11. I think we would all be more than happy to pay an increase of £1.11 per wagon, year on year to a total increase of £5.50 at the end of 5 years. So, in agreement with the comment made by Legend, where do these massive price increases come from. Yes material, yes shipping but the influence of these items would be similarly minor compared with the increases we have experienced. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 I don't think the Oxford wagons and the Radial tank are in the shops as yet, however they are apparently due for release. And there we have it. Oxford have given a price below its competitors that has got peoples interest but until they start selling and find what numbers they can produce and make profit on we have no idea what it will be in say a years time. Could be they end up at the same price as the competition. Could be the wagons are cr*p but cheap, but as they are not here yet they can't really be used as a comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 I've resisted posting on this thread as I'm aware that certain people are fed up with me banging on about cost, but I'm so happy to see someone other than me posting . Absolutely spot on sir!. I really commend this to the folks to Bachmann to read. They may increase prices but will ultimately sell less. I haven't bought BRM so no doubt David Haarhuus is on a charm offensive telling us why costs have to go up,no doubt with exploded pictures of parts. Sorry there are two sides to the story. It may cost you more to make but there are less people able to justify buying your goods, even if they have the means. As to Model Rail, I was given a copy to read the editorial . Lots of mentions about Bachmann bashing, not one mention of increased prices ( twice in one year , by the way) And they do not take the manufacturers view? Unbelievable Time we had a magazine representing the Model Railway Consumer not the manufacturer Keep banging on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I'll stick to kitbashing the tube and pipe wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 Information received from a very credible source advised that a recent article in the model railway press reported that the average hourly rate in China was equivalent to £1.11 per hour. The Chinese government has wants wages to rise by 20% per year for the next 5 years. A 20% rise equates to about 22 pence. If it takes 5 hours of manual assembly of a simple wagon (not an expensive autoballaster) that would be a manpower cost increase of £1.11. I think we would all be more than happy to pay an increase of £1.11 per wagon, year on year to a total increase of £5.50 at the end of 5 years. So, in agreement with the comment made by Legend, where do these massive price increases come from. Yes material, yes shipping but the influence of these items would be similarly minor compared with the increases we have experienced. Bob Redressing the losses already incurred by selling some of their previous models at less than cost for one thing. What about all the other workers involved in getting models made and shipped, the guys who maintain the machinery, deliver the raw materials to the factory, inspect the finished models, make the packaging, pack the crates for export, truck the finished products to the docks, run the HR department (yes, industries in other countries have bureaucracies too) etc etc etc. They are all getting similar pay increases - why do so many people seem to assume that everything but the hands-on assembly process happens by magic and costs nothing? Buying models isn't compulsory; if you think one isn't value for money, just don't buy it. If enough of you do that, the truth will emerge and one of two things will happen; either the next batch will be cheaper or there won't be a next batch. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 ......... why do so many people seem to think that everything but the actual assembly process happens by magic and costs nothing? John. Abracadabra, fiddle dee dee, with the wave of a wand, a pipe wagon you'll see... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 16, 2015 Redressing the losses already incurred by selling some previous models at less than cost for one thing. What about all the other workers involved in getting models made and shipped, the guys who maintain the machinery, deliver the raw materials to the factory, make the packaging, pack the crates for export, truck the finished products to the docks, run the HR department (yes, industries in other countries have a bureaucracy too) etc etc etc. They are all getting similar pay increases - why do so many people seem to think that everything but the actual assembly process happens by magic and costs nothing? John. John the point is that labour is a proportion of all or at least most of these items. I could point out its ridiculously cheap to transport a container (£100s) that plastic costs are going down, so while labour is not just assembly it is still a relatively small part of the total of the selling price . I think Dibber said 25% of total. Frankly I'm surprised at that and suspect it was a model with many small parts to get to that level. Remember what we are seeing is 15-20%(and more) increases on the selling price which includes retailers and manufacturers profits. For this all to be labour would mean labour is increasing by 60% per annum, which clearly it isn't! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 A wave of the MEK brush more like! Incidentally........ I get mine in bulk now, I buy it by the litre and decant as and when I need it. A litre costs about the same as a bottle in the shops and seems to last forever, no matter how much I spill on the garage floor! I wonder if I buy wagons unboxed in bulk,........if it will work out the same............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 John the point is that labour is a proportion of all or at least most of these items. I could point out its ridiculously cheap to transport a container (£100s) that plastic costs are going down, so while labour is not just assembly it is still a relatively small part of the total of the selling price . I think Dibber said 25% of total. Frankly I'm surprised at that and suspect it was a model with many small parts to get to that level. Remember what we are seeing is 15-20%(and more) increases on the selling price which includes retailers and manufacturers profits. For this all to be labour would mean labour is increasing by 60% per annum, which clearly it isn't! The problem with your calculation is that you do not know the design costs, material costs, labour costs, shipping charges, warehouse and Uk delivery costs and retailer percentage. And yet you hold the position that we are being overcharged. Do you think that is a fair conclusion ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 I wonder if I buy wagons unboxed in bulk,........if it will work out the same............ I've brought Bachmann MK 1's (Boxed) in this way. I picked up an order from Cheltenham models (I think) at Warley one year, when I was handing over the cash the chap next to me asked if he could have the same price, the answer was "yes if you buy 20 too" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 I'll stick to kitbashing the tube and pipe wagons. Much depends on what level of detail you are willing to accept or add. I have no experience of the Tube wagon (and don't need any) but I have built several of the Pipe wagon kits over the years; it's a good starting point but, without extra work and parts, doesn't make up into an accurate model. The underframe is the wrong sort, taken from the 21t Mineral wagon kit, with Heavy Duty axleguards and lift-link brakes. My stock of kit-built Pipes had shrunk to two and both were showing their age. The additional and more authentic detail incorporated in the Bachmann wagons persuaded me to replace them, at (discounted) prices in the high teens. I recycled the Kadee couplers and Gibson wheels from my old ones so the Bachmann models cost me nothing over the box price. Satisfied customer with two wagons better than the ones I had before; I might even get a third. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 The problem with your calculation is that you do not know the design costs, material costs, labour costs, shipping charges, warehouse and Uk delivery costs and retailer percentage. And yet you hold the position that we are being overcharged. Do you think that is a fair conclusion ? Why not? We're given a general statement that "manufacturing cost have gone up" and are expected to just divvy up the extra (or go without as has been glibly and repeatedly pointed out). If the whole sorry situation is because of the manufacturers mismanagement over the years are you suggesting that we no pick up the tab? I can't swallow the rubbish that the manufacturers peddle that they have been making a loss on some item. Funny how this only comes to light when they are trying to justify their greed. Do you really think they have been acting like a benevolent society for all these years, giving us cut price models and thinking of our best interests? These manufacturers have been charging Skoda prices for Skoda models for years. Fine. Now they are making Ford models and want to charge BMW prices and hope that with all the smoke and mirrors we might think we are getting an appropriate improvement for the additional cost (also taking into account the genuine increased cost of making a model). Yes, I have the option of not buying but that does not exclude me from voicing my opinions. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 And you've still got to renumber them all if you want a batch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Much depends on what level of detail you are willing to accept or add. I have no experience of the Tube wagon (and don't need any) but I have built several of the Pipe wagon kits over the years; it's a good starting point but, without extra work and parts, doesn't make up into an accurate model. The underframe is the wrong sort, taken from the 21t Mineral wagon kit, with Heavy Duty axleguards and lift-link brakes. My stock of kit-built Pipes had shrunk to two and both were showing their age. The additional and more authentic detail incorporated in the Bachmann wagons persuaded me to replace them, at (discounted) prices in the high teens. I recycled the Kadee couplers and Gibson wheels from my old ones so the Bachmann models cost me nothing over the box price. Satisfied customer with two wagons better than the ones I had before; I might even get a third. John And if you buy more than two, you've still got to renumber them if you want them totally authentic with different numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 Why not? We're given a general statement that "manufacturing cost have gone up" and are expected to just divvy up the extra (or go without as has been glibly and repeatedly pointed out). If the whole sorry situation is because of the manufacturers mismanagement over the years are you suggesting that we no pick up the tab? I can't swallow the rubbish that the manufacturers peddle that they have been making a loss on some item. Funny how this only comes to light when they are trying to justify their greed. Do you really think they have been acting like a benevolent society for all these years, giving us cut price models and thinking of our best interests? These manufacturers have been charging Skoda prices for Skoda models for years. Fine. Now they are making Ford models and want to charge BMW prices and hope that with all the smoke and mirrors we might think we are getting an appropriate improvement for the additional cost (also taking into account the genuine increased cost of making a model). Yes, I have the option of not buying but that does not exclude me from voicing my opinions. Bob Hmmmmm, I going to have to bite my tongue a bit here...... Yep thought a bit more and probably best not reply with my original thoughts but I will pick on this bit. If the whole sorry situation is because of the manufacturers mismanagement over the years Did you foresee a financial meltdown ? what would happen to the Chinese labour market ? are you suggesting that we no pick up the tab? Eeeerr yes, if you want the company to stay in business producing models then they have to make money. . . .funny that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hmmmmm, I going to have to bite my tongue a bit here...... Yep thought a bit more and probably best not reply with my original thoughts but I will pick on this bit. Did you foresee a financial meltdown ? what would happen to the Chinese labour market ? Eeeerr yes, if you want the company to stay in business producing models then they have to make money. . . .funny that. Very easy to take selective extracts and take the overall message out of context. I understand the financial difficulties of recent years but have a look at cost in other industries. Products also made in China. Much larger products. More man hours. More materials. More expensive shipping. More packaging. More R and D. Prices aren't going up by 60%. In fact, they've been coming down. White goods for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 A wave of the MEK brush more like! Incidentally........ I get mine in bulk now, I buy it by the litre and decant as and when I need it. A litre costs about the same as a bottle in the shops and seems to last forever, no matter how much I spill on the garage floor! I wonder if I buy wagons unboxed in bulk,........if it will work out the same............ Totally off topic, but where do you get MEK (or presumably it's equivalent) in bulk? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Manufacturers need to become more competitive. Not take their customers eyes out. That's how to do business. That's why they went to China in the first place. To hell with British or European jobs, we can make loads of money in China. Totally off topic, but where do you get MEK (or presumably it's equivalent) in bulk? Ebay Methyl Ethyl Ketone (butanone) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Manufacturers need to become more competitive. Not take their customers eyes out. That's how to do business. That's why they went to China in the first place. To hell with British or European jobs, we can make loads of money in China. Ebay Methyl Ethyl Ketone (butanone) That is butan-2-one or 2-butanone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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